Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,998
If the company can shave 3 percent off the block times it equates to about a 2 percent decrease in manning. They are not the same because you have to factor in reserves, vacation and other forms of credit and pay. Anything that reduces block time reduces pilot jobs. In the end the number of pilots Delta needs is based on block time plus credit divided by the number of pilots and the hours the contract permits them to fly.
The RJ mantra about job loss certainly has some truth but the reality is that the massive job loss from 2001 to 2007 at Delta was mostly work rule generated. In fact we had the same number of pilot block hours in June of 01 as we had in June of 07. Yes the fleet was smaller but we had shifted a large number of aircraft to international where they flew more hours per day and often were relief or even double crewed. What changed was the average pilot went from 600 block hours a year to 800. Thats a staggering 25% improvement in productivity.
The sad reality however it that with the productivity SW generated per pilot and their rise to the largest US domestic airline it was probably not possible for Delta to ever compete with the work rules we had in place at one time. Bow Wave and Spill back were both tremendous quality of life items and bow wave in particular protected a huge number of jobs. One of the best quotes I once heard was your have a union for two reasons. To protect you from the company and to protect you from your fellow pilots. With the elimination of bow wave and cash paid each month for each hour flown utilization has soared. I know the ALPA haters will jump on this post and say DALPA failed us by allowing what we have today but again the reality is that as a airline Delta was not going to survive with the productivity level we once had. SWA drove a stake right though the heart of the good old days of pilot lifestyles.
The RJ mantra about job loss certainly has some truth but the reality is that the massive job loss from 2001 to 2007 at Delta was mostly work rule generated. In fact we had the same number of pilot block hours in June of 01 as we had in June of 07. Yes the fleet was smaller but we had shifted a large number of aircraft to international where they flew more hours per day and often were relief or even double crewed. What changed was the average pilot went from 600 block hours a year to 800. Thats a staggering 25% improvement in productivity.
The sad reality however it that with the productivity SW generated per pilot and their rise to the largest US domestic airline it was probably not possible for Delta to ever compete with the work rules we had in place at one time. Bow Wave and Spill back were both tremendous quality of life items and bow wave in particular protected a huge number of jobs. One of the best quotes I once heard was your have a union for two reasons. To protect you from the company and to protect you from your fellow pilots. With the elimination of bow wave and cash paid each month for each hour flown utilization has soared. I know the ALPA haters will jump on this post and say DALPA failed us by allowing what we have today but again the reality is that as a airline Delta was not going to survive with the productivity level we once had. SWA drove a stake right though the heart of the good old days of pilot lifestyles.
I think the RJs were just as sucky for DAL pilots as the work rules. But really, we are splitting hairs here - both were really, really bad as far as I am concerned. And lets not forget the hundreds of FEs that moved to FO seats.
But I agree 100% with your larger point - to compete effectively DAL was going to have to get more efficient one way or another.
Scoop
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: NYC 320B
Posts: 271
I heard a rumor today...We may need to hire if we sign this TA and gain nearly 88 717s.
I need a distraction from waiting for the award.
Here, let's try a song:
Here, let's try a song:
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: NYC 320B
Posts: 271
Damm, the parlay. I forgot about the parlay!
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,738
The right seat is pretty easy to figure, what number and where is the most junior pilot on our list right now? Is he/she on the DC9, or MD88? If they are on the 9 right now, and all the 9 pilots are being displaced in this bid, then I would guess the most junior 9 pilot will now be the most junior 717 pilot.
If instead, the most junior pilot on our list is on the MD88, some of the 9 pilots could go there and bump them off, to bottom of the 717. Either way, I think the 'new bottom' will be the 717, as it's the lowest paying we have.
The left seat will be harder to figure, because some pretty senior guys may bid it, just to be in the top 5, or 10, or what have you, and/or LCA wannabees. But the bottom of the left seat should go very junior, for the same reasons as the bottom on the right seat.
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
If the company can shave 3 percent off the block times it equates to about a 2 percent decrease in manning. They are not the same because you have to factor in reserves, vacation and other forms of credit and pay. Anything that reduces block time reduces pilot jobs. In the end the number of pilots Delta needs is based on block time plus credit divided by the number of pilots and the hours the contract permits them to fly.
The RJ mantra about job loss certainly has some truth but the reality is that the massive job loss from 2001 to 2007 at Delta was mostly work rule generated. In fact we had the same number of pilot block hours in June of 01 as we had in June of 07. Yes the fleet was smaller but we had shifted a large number of aircraft to international where they flew more hours per day and often were relief or even double crewed. What changed was the average pilot went from 600 block hours a year to 800. Thats a staggering 25% improvement in productivity.
The sad reality however it that with the productivity SW generated per pilot and their rise to the largest US domestic airline it was probably not possible for Delta to ever compete with the work rules we had in place at one time. Bow Wave and Spill back were both tremendous quality of life items and bow wave in particular protected a huge number of jobs. One of the best quotes I once heard was your have a union for two reasons. To protect you from the company and to protect you from your fellow pilots. With the elimination of bow wave and cash paid each month for each hour flown utilization has soared. I know the ALPA haters will jump on this post and say DALPA failed us by allowing what we have today but again the reality is that as a airline Delta was not going to survive with the productivity level we once had. SWA drove a stake right though the heart of the good old days of pilot lifestyles.
The RJ mantra about job loss certainly has some truth but the reality is that the massive job loss from 2001 to 2007 at Delta was mostly work rule generated. In fact we had the same number of pilot block hours in June of 01 as we had in June of 07. Yes the fleet was smaller but we had shifted a large number of aircraft to international where they flew more hours per day and often were relief or even double crewed. What changed was the average pilot went from 600 block hours a year to 800. Thats a staggering 25% improvement in productivity.
The sad reality however it that with the productivity SW generated per pilot and their rise to the largest US domestic airline it was probably not possible for Delta to ever compete with the work rules we had in place at one time. Bow Wave and Spill back were both tremendous quality of life items and bow wave in particular protected a huge number of jobs. One of the best quotes I once heard was your have a union for two reasons. To protect you from the company and to protect you from your fellow pilots. With the elimination of bow wave and cash paid each month for each hour flown utilization has soared. I know the ALPA haters will jump on this post and say DALPA failed us by allowing what we have today but again the reality is that as a airline Delta was not going to survive with the productivity level we once had. SWA drove a stake right though the heart of the good old days of pilot lifestyles.
Back to the original point, gate latency efforts will likely eliminate at least a couple hundred jobs once the new block times are averaged into the system in a year or so, espeically as we transition to more short haul/high cycle flying where that effort is more often a factor. By then we may or may not be hiring, but even if we are it will be less. Once that plank is nailed firmly in place, watch for an effort to go to wheel spin, etc. To avoid D-0 being trashed, it will just become SOP to push D minus X minutes. Problem solved, pilot block hours take another hit.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Agreed 100%. While I think the prevalence of that attitude has been over emphasised to the point of stereotypical hyberbole, it nevertheless exists. Shame on anyone with that ignorant point of view as it is devistating to our pilots and the profession and always has been.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,028
You have almost figured out what is going on. Seat lock a bunch of guys on the lowest paying equipment for the next few years with emminent known secret hiring. Then bring in new hires on larger equipment out of seniority to fly the larger equipment. Saves money and reduces the overall training footprint in the long run. Know where has this been seen before? Oh yeah, here. In 2008 when new hires were going to the ER. People's memory are so short and mgt is counting on that as always.
Then, just as the lock is expirining a new contract will be in negotiations with another "great deal" for the bottom half of the list.
Then, just as the lock is expirining a new contract will be in negotiations with another "great deal" for the bottom half of the list.
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