Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-18-2013, 08:56 AM
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 7,000
Here's the simple math:
Flying 5 more hours, on average, ie. 80 instead of 75, adds 6.66% productivity, which is how the company wants it. To US, that means 5hrs. mo'money, but it also means they need 6.66% less pilots to accomplish the same amount of flying. On a 10,000 pilot list, that equates to 666.66 fewer pilots needed to do the same amount of flying.
Now, ramp that up to 85, from our old baseline of 75, that's 13.33% or 1,333 less pilots needed. Want to fly 90 a month? If everone does, that means 2,000 less pilots required, vs. a 75 hr. cap. The company will love you! DALPA will love you (the guys who's pay is based on the average pilot's hours), but the bottom 2,000 may not think it's so wonderful.
Now you see why we've had stagnation and a shrinking seniority list, vs. hiring.
Here's a little something else that's hurting our needed numbers. Why do you think the company wanted to combine the 767Er and 767 Domestic? Because now they won't need as many reserves to cover both categories, they can use all 767 Reserves for both Domestic and Int. flying, which requires less reserves overall.
The only bright spot for us is, Richard seems content to keep bringing in new fleet types, which requires more guys off the line, going to training, and will require more reserves spread into yet another aircraft category. It may replace the overages caused by combining the 767ER+Dom, but at a much reduced pay rate (717 pay vs. 767 pay) and after all the DC9's are parked, it will wash out to less pilots needed overall.
Flying 5 more hours, on average, ie. 80 instead of 75, adds 6.66% productivity, which is how the company wants it. To US, that means 5hrs. mo'money, but it also means they need 6.66% less pilots to accomplish the same amount of flying. On a 10,000 pilot list, that equates to 666.66 fewer pilots needed to do the same amount of flying.
Now, ramp that up to 85, from our old baseline of 75, that's 13.33% or 1,333 less pilots needed. Want to fly 90 a month? If everone does, that means 2,000 less pilots required, vs. a 75 hr. cap. The company will love you! DALPA will love you (the guys who's pay is based on the average pilot's hours), but the bottom 2,000 may not think it's so wonderful.
Now you see why we've had stagnation and a shrinking seniority list, vs. hiring.
Here's a little something else that's hurting our needed numbers. Why do you think the company wanted to combine the 767Er and 767 Domestic? Because now they won't need as many reserves to cover both categories, they can use all 767 Reserves for both Domestic and Int. flying, which requires less reserves overall.
The only bright spot for us is, Richard seems content to keep bringing in new fleet types, which requires more guys off the line, going to training, and will require more reserves spread into yet another aircraft category. It may replace the overages caused by combining the 767ER+Dom, but at a much reduced pay rate (717 pay vs. 767 pay) and after all the DC9's are parked, it will wash out to less pilots needed overall.
Spot on Timbo! This whole discussion cracks me up. Junior guys are complaining that only senior guys (in base) get GS's and 1.5 over 80 would spread the wealth. Then FTB pulls out an old post saying the NW guys said the over 80 thing disproportionately benefited only the senior guys.
Newsflash guys - anything that is beneficial, will disproportionately benefit the senior guys in a seniority based system. If we were to foolishly go down the 1.5 over 80 path almost every single senior guy would bid MAX CREDIT and then put in a standing WS request. Junior guys in category would rarely see over ALV much less 80 hours unless they were the lucky junior in category who would quickly become more senior in category.............after they got displaced to the next lower category.
Classic Tragedy of the Commons scenario guys - not good.
Scoop
03-18-2013, 08:57 AM
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Posts: 633
There's gonna be some rude awakenings.
And even the occasional "give it back! Let Pinnacle have it back" followed by thumb sucking after the 4th reroute into less rest on your 5 day trip.
03-18-2013, 08:57 AM
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03-18-2013, 09:00 AM
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Spot on Timbo! This whole discussion cracks me up. Junior guys are complaining that only senior guys (in base) get GS's and 1.5 over 80 would spread the wealth. Then FTB pulls out an old post saying the NW guys said the over 80 thing disproportionately benefited only the senior guys.
Newsflash guys - anything that is beneficial, will disproportionately benefit the senior guys in a seniority based system. If we were to foolishly go down the 1.5 over 80 path almost every single senior guy would bid MAX CREDIT and then put in a standing WS request. Junior guys in category would rarely see over ALV much less 80 hours unless they were the lucky junior in category who would quickly become more senior in category.............after they got displaced to the next lower category.
Classic Tragedy of the Commons scenario guys - not good.
Scoop
Newsflash guys - anything that is beneficial, will disproportionately benefit the senior guys in a seniority based system. If we were to foolishly go down the 1.5 over 80 path almost every single senior guy would bid MAX CREDIT and then put in a standing WS request. Junior guys in category would rarely see over ALV much less 80 hours unless they were the lucky junior in category who would quickly become more senior in category.............after they got displaced to the next lower category.
Classic Tragedy of the Commons scenario guys - not good.
Scoop
03-18-2013, 09:04 AM
#WEDAT
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: 717a
Posts: 286
All of the gadgets won't help with ATL-BHM-ATL-BNA-ATL-CHS-ATL-SAV-ATL-MLB-ATL-PNS-ATL-CHA-ATL-AVL-ATL-ORD-ATL-HSV-ATL.
There's gonna be some rude awakenings.
And even the occasional "give it back! Let Pinnacle have it back" followed by thumb sucking after the 4th reroute into less rest on your 5 day trip.
There's gonna be some rude awakenings.
And even the occasional "give it back! Let Pinnacle have it back" followed by thumb sucking after the 4th reroute into less rest on your 5 day trip.
03-18-2013, 09:08 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
717...... . ......
03-18-2013, 09:11 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: ATL717A
Posts: 890
03-18-2013, 09:19 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,614
Also the "gate latency" thing could eliminate many, many thousands of block hours per year from the schedule. That's what its for mostly IMO, and not "tracking ground control alleyway congestion" which is uber bogus. That could be a major cource of "funding" to further delay hiring, while potential merger "partners" continue to hire and get "more senior" than DL pilots.
The RJ mantra about job loss certainly has some truth but the reality is that the massive job loss from 2001 to 2007 at Delta was mostly work rule generated. In fact we had the same number of pilot block hours in June of 01 as we had in June of 07. Yes the fleet was smaller but we had shifted a large number of aircraft to international where they flew more hours per day and often were relief or even double crewed. What changed was the average pilot went from 600 block hours a year to 800. Thats a staggering 25% improvement in productivity.
The sad reality however it that with the productivity SW generated per pilot and their rise to the largest US domestic airline it was probably not possible for Delta to ever compete with the work rules we had in place at one time. Bow Wave and Spill back were both tremendous quality of life items and bow wave in particular protected a huge number of jobs. One of the best quotes I once heard was your have a union for two reasons. To protect you from the company and to protect you from your fellow pilots. With the elimination of bow wave and cash paid each month for each hour flown utilization has soared. I know the ALPA haters will jump on this post and say DALPA failed us by allowing what we have today but again the reality is that as a airline Delta was not going to survive with the productivity level we once had. SWA drove a stake right though the heart of the good old days of pilot lifestyles.
03-18-2013, 09:24 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 351
If the company can shave 3 percent off the block times it equates to about a 2 percent decrease in manning. They are not the same because you have to factor in reserves, vacation and other forms of credit and pay. Anything that reduces block time reduces pilot jobs. In the end the number of pilots Delta needs is based on block time plus credit divided by the number of pilots and the hours the contract permits them to fly.
The RJ mantra about job loss certainly has some truth but the reality is that the massive job loss from 2001 to 2007 at Delta was mostly work rule generated. In fact we had the same number of pilot block hours in June of 01 as we had in June of 07. Yes the fleet was smaller but we had shifted a large number of aircraft to international where they flew more hours per day and often were relief or even double crewed. What changed was the average pilot went from 600 block hours a year to 800. Thats a staggering 25% improvement in productivity.
The sad reality however it that with the productivity SW generated per pilot and their rise to the largest US domestic airline it was probably not possible for Delta to ever compete with the work rules we had in place at one time. Bow Wave and Spill back were both tremendous quality of life items and bow wave in particular protected a huge number of jobs. One of the best quotes I once heard was your have a union for two reasons. To protect you from the company and to protect you from your fellow pilots. With the elimination of bow wave and cash paid each month for each hour flown utilization has soared. I know the ALPA haters will jump on this post and say DALPA failed us by allowing what we have today but again the reality is that as a airline Delta was not going to survive with the productivity level we once had. SWA drove a stake right though the heart of the good old days of pilot lifestyles.
The RJ mantra about job loss certainly has some truth but the reality is that the massive job loss from 2001 to 2007 at Delta was mostly work rule generated. In fact we had the same number of pilot block hours in June of 01 as we had in June of 07. Yes the fleet was smaller but we had shifted a large number of aircraft to international where they flew more hours per day and often were relief or even double crewed. What changed was the average pilot went from 600 block hours a year to 800. Thats a staggering 25% improvement in productivity.
The sad reality however it that with the productivity SW generated per pilot and their rise to the largest US domestic airline it was probably not possible for Delta to ever compete with the work rules we had in place at one time. Bow Wave and Spill back were both tremendous quality of life items and bow wave in particular protected a huge number of jobs. One of the best quotes I once heard was your have a union for two reasons. To protect you from the company and to protect you from your fellow pilots. With the elimination of bow wave and cash paid each month for each hour flown utilization has soared. I know the ALPA haters will jump on this post and say DALPA failed us by allowing what we have today but again the reality is that as a airline Delta was not going to survive with the productivity level we once had. SWA drove a stake right though the heart of the good old days of pilot lifestyles.
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03-18-2013, 09:44 AM
#WEDAT
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: 717a
Posts: 286
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