Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-18-2013, 07:00 AM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
New categories are filled in straight seniority order. It does not matter whether it is an advanced entitlement bid or a displacement. And category freezes also do not apply. It is open for all bidders and it is filled strictly based on seniority.
03-18-2013, 07:04 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,738
If nobody senior to you MD's or AE's into it, you may get it, don't hold your breath.
Oh, and 'My Theory' is not a theory at all, it's just how the system works. I've been displaced more than a few times in the past 27+ years, so I know how it works.
03-18-2013, 07:05 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Still in one
Posts: 784
Here's the simple math:
Flying 5 more hours, on average, ie. 80 instead of 75, adds 6.66% productivity, which is how the company wants it. To US, that means 5hrs. mo'money, but it also means they need 6.66% less pilots to accomplish the same amount of flying. On a 10,000 pilot list, that equates to 666.66 fewer pilots needed to do the same amount of flying.
Now, ramp that up to 85, from our old baseline of 75, that's 13.33% or 1,333 less pilots needed. Want to fly 90 a month? If everone does, that means 2,000 less pilots required, vs. a 75 hr. cap. The company will love you! DALPA will love you (the guys who's pay is based on the average pilot's hours), but the bottom 2,000 may not think it's so wonderful.
Now you see why we've had stagnation and a shrinking seniority list, vs. hiring.
Here's a little something else that's hurting our needed numbers. Why do you think the company wanted to combine the 767Er and 767 Domestic? Because now they won't need as many reserves to cover both categories, they can use all 767 Reserves for both Domestic and Int. flying, which requires less reserves overall.
The only bright spot for us is, Richard seems content to keep bringing in new fleet types, which requires more guys off the line, going to training, and will require more reserves spread into yet another aircraft category. It may replace the overages caused by combining the 767ER+Dom, but at a much reduced pay rate (717 pay vs. 767 pay) and after all the DC9's are parked, it will wash out to less pilots needed overall.
Flying 5 more hours, on average, ie. 80 instead of 75, adds 6.66% productivity, which is how the company wants it. To US, that means 5hrs. mo'money, but it also means they need 6.66% less pilots to accomplish the same amount of flying. On a 10,000 pilot list, that equates to 666.66 fewer pilots needed to do the same amount of flying.
Now, ramp that up to 85, from our old baseline of 75, that's 13.33% or 1,333 less pilots needed. Want to fly 90 a month? If everone does, that means 2,000 less pilots required, vs. a 75 hr. cap. The company will love you! DALPA will love you (the guys who's pay is based on the average pilot's hours), but the bottom 2,000 may not think it's so wonderful.
Now you see why we've had stagnation and a shrinking seniority list, vs. hiring.
Here's a little something else that's hurting our needed numbers. Why do you think the company wanted to combine the 767Er and 767 Domestic? Because now they won't need as many reserves to cover both categories, they can use all 767 Reserves for both Domestic and Int. flying, which requires less reserves overall.
The only bright spot for us is, Richard seems content to keep bringing in new fleet types, which requires more guys off the line, going to training, and will require more reserves spread into yet another aircraft category. It may replace the overages caused by combining the 767ER+Dom, but at a much reduced pay rate (717 pay vs. 767 pay) and after all the DC9's are parked, it will wash out to less pilots needed overall.
03-18-2013, 07:05 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
At first glance, I was for adding some kind of 1.5x trigger to our current system as you suggest. However, the more I thought about, the more I felt like this would only encourage people to pick up more time and try to fly even more per month then they already do further reducing staffing needs in each category. More stagnation...
If we want to spend negotiating capitol on something, let's spend it on book rates and make every hour worth more, not just "high time."
My goal is to make more for the same amount of days away from home, not to make more by working even more.
If we want to spend negotiating capitol on something, let's spend it on book rates and make every hour worth more, not just "high time."
My goal is to make more for the same amount of days away from home, not to make more by working even more.
03-18-2013, 07:10 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
If GS are so unfair, then let me ask this rethorical question: are the 1.5X>80 proponents willing to make sure the open time is distributed evenly throughout each category list?
03-18-2013, 07:12 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
03-18-2013, 07:12 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,738
Raising ALV's permanently absolutely results in less jobs. Filling of open time after staffing is calculated does not affect staffing. Whether the open time is filled via GS or 1.5X over XX only affects the GS opportunities. ALV's and how open time is filled for premium flying is apples and oranges.
We are down to less than 20% reserves required, because now that there is no 75hr. cap, guys can white slip up to ALV+15, and they can swap a 10hr. 2 day for a 30hr. 4 day, and get well over 100 hr. month.
Yeah, that probably has no effect...
03-18-2013, 07:17 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
and:
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
From talking to the merger committee folks the end money given to the pilot group between the time and a half pay NWA used to get and the greenslip system was a wash proportionally. However, the greenslip system was spread out whereas the 1.5X system was heavily in favor of senior pilots.
Thanks for making this very pertinent point. I never thought about it that way, but there is no way 1.5>80 will be more fair than GS (quite the opposite). This is because access to open time is straight seniority, whereas GS has a distribution mechanism to send flying down. Anyone that's in a category that's even remotely fat knows that the flying never trickles down very far, AND we all see people engaging in various "social bdding" practices, and bidding mafias, to snake a disproportional amount of flying to themselves and their friends. I just saw it done in person not long ago, and it's pretty disgusting. Not illegal perhaps, but disgusting nonetheless.
Interestingly, when some F/A's were found out doing same (bidding on open time for friends that were airborne at the time), they were canned.
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
From talking to the merger committee folks the end money given to the pilot group between the time and a half pay NWA used to get and the greenslip system was a wash proportionally. However, the greenslip system was spread out whereas the 1.5X system was heavily in favor of senior pilots.
Thanks for making this very pertinent point. I never thought about it that way, but there is no way 1.5>80 will be more fair than GS (quite the opposite). This is because access to open time is straight seniority, whereas GS has a distribution mechanism to send flying down. Anyone that's in a category that's even remotely fat knows that the flying never trickles down very far, AND we all see people engaging in various "social bdding" practices, and bidding mafias, to snake a disproportional amount of flying to themselves and their friends. I just saw it done in person not long ago, and it's pretty disgusting. Not illegal perhaps, but disgusting nonetheless.
Interestingly, when some F/A's were found out doing same (bidding on open time for friends that were airborne at the time), they were canned.
03-18-2013, 07:21 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
From the union: The top most senior 145 AE’s would initially populate those positions. Then the system goes back and looks at Mandatory Displacements.
From me: So my understanding is they just run the AEs and if 0 pilots being displaced (767/DC9) bid the 717 on an AE then on the first run they're not put into the plane. 0 will be awarded the 717. However, the next run they do the MDs and that's when the 767/DC9 guys who bid the 717 on an MD (and wanted it) will get to hold it and knock junior pilots down below them until they knock people off. Then they post it. So for the DC9/767 guys, they luck out in that there are no category freezes off their MD and they'll hold it if their seniority was going to hold it in the first place. You end up in the same place. But it's also why that count thing on icrew is so worthless.
I'm still saying 1601 on March 19th.
And let's have an even bigger pool, how many times does someone ask if the AE is out?
03-18-2013, 07:25 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,738
From the company: The AE’s run first and they will fill all 145 positions or to the max amount of people who bid it. Next the MD’s run and it will look at their bid and determine if there is a junior pilot in the category or if there is a vacancy. If there is not a junior pilot to them, it will move on to their next choice.
From the union: The top most senior 145 AE’s would initially populate those positions. Then the system goes back and looks at Mandatory Displacements.
From me: So my understanding is they just run the AEs and if 0 pilots being displaced (767/DC9) bid the 717 on an AE then on the first run they're not put into the plane. 0 will be awarded the 717. However, the next run they do the MDs and that's when the 767/DC9 guys who bid the 717 on an MD (and wanted it) will get to hold it and knock juniorpilots down below them until they knock people off. Then they post it.
At 1601 on March 19th.
From the union: The top most senior 145 AE’s would initially populate those positions. Then the system goes back and looks at Mandatory Displacements.
From me: So my understanding is they just run the AEs and if 0 pilots being displaced (767/DC9) bid the 717 on an AE then on the first run they're not put into the plane. 0 will be awarded the 717. However, the next run they do the MDs and that's when the 767/DC9 guys who bid the 717 on an MD (and wanted it) will get to hold it and knock juniorpilots down below them until they knock people off. Then they post it.
At 1601 on March 19th.
Yeahbut...you forgot about the VD's!
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