johnso29

I didn't ask you to call them suckers. I asked if you felt they should have allowed their vote to be swayed by his statement. Let's be honest, SD did not have to mention the possibility of hiring. I never have, nor will defend his statement. He(they) may have been attempting to sway voters. But is this not the typical political games we play? How many times will we let Lucy yank the ball mid kick before we stop attempting the kick? So either we base our vote on the TA alone, or we continue to fall prey to politics. At some point, the blame lies on us too.

Scoop

That is a pretty broad brush you are painting with. The fact that both of the concerned Pilots referenced above pretty much fit that demographic (recent DAL Hires), and are offering opposing points of view, kind of refutes your statement.

Scoop

Sink r8

I guess the piece you're missing, Johnso is the fact that SD did not err by omission. He decided to put that statement in there. It was a sales tool. Everyone is correct about this: some guys say it wasn't a promise, some guys say it was an attempt to sway votes.

SD lost a little credibility, but the bottom line is that hiring is a by-product of advancement ONLY after any surplusses have been absorbed. We can't feel it when a new pilot is hired, only when we move forward or backwards. We're inching forward after a long post-merger slide. We're hungry for more, and more seems to be on its' way. Let's believe it's here when more actually shows up.

daldude

That is exactly right. No matter what anyone says it was a sales job to pass the TA. A truthful and reasonable approach would have been to leave any near term hiring projections out and let the TA sell it self.

As far as Johnson's Cheerleader routine. I would be pretty optimistic if I was hired at 28 and was 32 now. But let him be furloughed for half a decade, sit as a FO for 23 years and he would be a little less optimistic and more cynical.

In reality everything that all of the pessimist talk about has come true in that most continue to move backwards, they continue to delay hiring(not only that they openly admit that mother delta does not want to hire pilots), it appears they will continue 757 retirements to fund vacancies following the DC9's. So no matter how good Johnson and Sailing say it is the reality is nothing has come to fruition yet. Will it happen, who knows but as of now it appears they will do everything in there power to prevent hiring or progression. Now what I will say is..... if the pilot group could avoid flying white and green slips for a few months I feel confident we could get the hiring machine started.

johnso29

I'm not disagreeing with that. But at what point do we stop blaming management, & start blaming ourselves? Even if it's only partial blame.

GunshipGuy

Oh, don't get me wrong--the blame is squarely on us for our vote. I haven't even been in this business that long, but I realize when I'm being fed a statement that has nothing standing behind it other than one man's word. But that man represents the word of management, and is the company's non-binding word; he had no contractual basis to stand behind it. So, yes, you can attribute it to how the game is played, but the fact is the vast majority of his audience were pilots who don't play that game; pilots who deal with other pilots, and take a man at his word--not lawyers trying to get one over on our fellow Delta employee. So, yes, while I'm sure there were few if any who bet the farm on what SD had to say about hiring, most took it to be sincere, and not the word of a snake in the grass. But excusing it in any fashion, IMHO, only sets us up to be taken again in some other fashion in the future. Recognize it for what it is: a contorted statement by a man who realized he couldn't be held to account, but could find favor with his superiors for pushing the truth envelop. Don't forget; don't forgive. Otherwise learn to smile when you're lied to again and again, and then say, "They're not to blame--they're just doing what they have been taught to do." Too bad our MEC didn't put that disclaimer at the bottom of every piece of propaganda we were fed during the TA discussion. WARNING: Anything we regurgitate to you here is almost word for word what we were told by management to get you to vote YES, but you should realize they'll lie to you if given the chance and you're an idiot if you don't realize that. Delta's a family in as much as a bunch of back stabbing cousins trying to cut each out of great grandpa's will.

forgot to bid

I blamed ourselves very quickly.

I can't blame management for co-selling the TA.

Sink r8

Our gullibility doesn't excuse the misleading, but to your point you shouldn't factor in vague and unenforceable promises when negotiating or settling a contract.

SD is there to manage Flight Ops. He answers to his superiors, and his first job is to back them up. Doesn't make him mean, or cruel, or weird. If the choice is between expanding a little credibility to support the mission, or to gain more trust at the expense of some votes, pragmatism invariably yields a sales job.

daldude

Blame ourselves for what?

Purple Drank

Absolutely. If he was misinformed and made a promise that was later overriden by the board, the "Delta Way" would dictate he have the integrity to apologize and explain himself. Which he hasn't.

I personally feel he was used or he intended to deceive us. And he's too smart to be used.

As I recall, the company hired a high-dollar labor-busting consultant to mind-**** us into passing the TA. My guess is, those guys passed out scripts to management, dictating who said what, when. SD just played his part, same as any other two-bit airline exec would.

The "Delta Way" seems to be a one-way street. Especially at contract time.