Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Or we could go from 717 mainline jets plus 88 B717s for 805 jets. That would be 38 jets above the 767 base. 38 X 3=114 which would easily allow 255 76 seaters and 0 70 seaters.
Now 255 76 seaters is less then 325 76 seaters. But, the ratio is now in place. It wasn't before. And while you've calculated that we "could" maintain the 1.56 BHR without growing, that doesn't stop the fact that we could be shrunk below that ratio of block hours after they pump and dumped us. The 1.56 BHR is protection we didn't have before. Would it really be more expensive to just park the DC9s and 30+ 55XX series 757s. Or the 320s?
So I guess whether the BHR protection is worth 70 more jumbo RJs is where the difference lies. I voted NO becuase I couldn't stomach signing off on 70 more large RJs. But I think this contract is pointing us in the right direction.
Now 255 76 seaters is less then 325 76 seaters. But, the ratio is now in place. It wasn't before. And while you've calculated that we "could" maintain the 1.56 BHR without growing, that doesn't stop the fact that we could be shrunk below that ratio of block hours after they pump and dumped us. The 1.56 BHR is protection we didn't have before. Would it really be more expensive to just park the DC9s and 30+ 55XX series 757s. Or the 320s?
So I guess whether the BHR protection is worth 70 more jumbo RJs is where the difference lies. I voted NO becuase I couldn't stomach signing off on 70 more large RJs. But I think this contract is pointing us in the right direction.
The easier way would be to use the 717s you already were going to acquire as leverage to drop the 806 requirement and throw in a ratio set at status quo at mainline : DCI@450 jets.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 02-17-2013 at 09:56 AM.
![forgot to bid is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
![](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/clear.gif)
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 710
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
FTB has talent. I have double checked his numbers on several occasions, they always add up. I would very much like to see a guy like FTB in such a position to shoot holes and play devils advocate, the reality is he would be bored. IMHO, there is not currently such an individual at Herndon or in Atlanta working for the MEC.
![TOGA LK is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Because while Slowplay PM's 80ktsclamp with the trucking school number, he continues to PM me with the Clown College number and a note "You'll be the valedictorian for the first time in your life!"
![Big Grin](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
![forgot to bid is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
j29, one last string of thoughts on the subject (maybe) and thanks for the cordial discussion.
Contract 2012
Delta:
your mileage may vary, it's just my thought.
Contract 2012
Delta:
- 50 seat RJs are unpopular with our passengers and their CASM is too high and their killing out balance sheet especially if they go into heavy maintenance.
- We have too many RJs.
- We have too many 50 seat RJs and not enough 70/76 seat RJs.
- We want more 70/76 seaters beyond 255 but the PWA will not allow it.
- We want more 76 seaters then we have now but the PWA will not allow it. Unless we grow from 720 jets which is a size we like up to 800+ mainline jets and even then we have to park relatively new 70 seaters on a 1:1 trade. To grow that much would be bad on our balance sheet, our partnerships and capacity discipline path.
- We are going to acquire SWA's 717s and we're going to try and squeeze SWA as much as we can on the price. We want every 717 ever made. Scream bucking bar, long live McDonnell Douglas.
- Must be no worse than cost neutral.
- We want the TA done now.
- We want DCI to shrink.
- We want the size of DCI to be directly linked to the size of our domestic mainline operation in the only metric we think matters which is pilot block hours.
- We want to include turboprops in size restrictions and caps, not just jets.
- Everything is on the table.
- We understand if there is something we want then we know what we are willing to give up to get it.
- We want a pay raise.
- In order to get the 717s, the pilot must vote YES immediately on the first TA and agree to the following:
- DCI will shrink to an optimum size, but, the 255 cap must be lifted to 325. The PWA must add 70 more 76 seaters without having to park any 70-seaters and no more growth beyond the 767 mainline merger fleet size.
- Change jets to aircraft so as to include turboprops that Delta in their right mind would never want anyways.
- A BH ratio will ensure the size of DCI does not grow while mainline shrinks.
- The BH ratio, however, will not force mainline to grow beyond what it is right now. If Delta sees the need to grow then that's their prerogative but the ratio will NOT have to increase as mainline grows.
- IF mainline does shrink below the 1.56 ratio, DCI will be reduced but the 70-76 seaters do not have to be reduced. The cuts can come from the 50 seaters.
your mileage may vary, it's just my thought.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 02-17-2013 at 10:49 AM.
![forgot to bid is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Of course the prior contract allowed a greater number of CR9's then the current contract and with aircraft deliveries coming it would have been very simple to pump and dump to reach those numbers. Yes they would have had to reduce the CR7's some to accomplish that but they could have had more of the 9's everyone states are such great aircraft.
Keep one thing in mind. The people involved in the contract working for us modeled every possible option the company had with regard to long term fleet plans. They had airline experts to assist in that not keyboard cowboys. The company had many different options. The current plan was simply one choice among many. Several of the other plans would have been ugly for us but legal under the existing contract.
Keep one thing in mind. The people involved in the contract working for us modeled every possible option the company had with regard to long term fleet plans. They had airline experts to assist in that not keyboard cowboys. The company had many different options. The current plan was simply one choice among many. Several of the other plans would have been ugly for us but legal under the existing contract.
1.) Don't ever ask a question.
2.) Write each statement as fact.
3.) Belittle other peoples' assumptions, while making many assumptions yourself.
4.) Measure every TA criticism against any of several DALPA induced Plan B doomsday scenarios. (Plausibility Not-Required)
5.) Rhetorical Statement. (Not even sure how one goes about making one)
6.) Be as matter-of-fact as possible. (More matter, than fact)
7.) Insult the opinions of others.
8.) Convince yourself that only your point of view is of importance.
9.) When someone disagrees with you, see number 7.
10.) Believe that what you write is the be-all/end-all to everything that is Delta. (You must truly believe this with all your heart)
![DeadHead is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
You're right, it absolutely would be an issue if the 50 seater was a threat, which it was post 9/11. It's not now. We had a cap on the airplanes that were the real threat and the 50 seaters were/are on their way out.
I just don't think the 50 seater was a threat even if it had better CASM. It takes up slots and gates, it's small and it's uncomfortable. It's just not bi-winning.
EB, 24OCT12
"...we’ll be mindful of our frequency by market and that’s a key driver, and the 717 deal, particularly, gives us much better gauge and the second thing is, I don’t think customers want to fly 800, 900 miles on a 50-seater. Part of what we’re doing here is putting a better product in the market, better fuel efficiency, fewer airplanes in the air and our customers tell us they much prefer flying on mainline airplanes rather than 34-, 44-, and 50-seat airplanes.
"...we’ll be mindful of our frequency by market and that’s a key driver, and the 717 deal, particularly, gives us much better gauge and the second thing is, I don’t think customers want to fly 800, 900 miles on a 50-seater. Part of what we’re doing here is putting a better product in the market, better fuel efficiency, fewer airplanes in the air and our customers tell us they much prefer flying on mainline airplanes rather than 34-, 44-, and 50-seat airplanes.
I'm not contesting that the 50 seater is a threat, but if the company signs a commitment to fly them we have zero guarantee that they will be out the door early. As a mentioned earlier, prior to Delta buying 9E they actually extended their 50 seat contract. We can attempt to call their bluff, but at what cost? Do we go years without a contract?
To be fair, the EB quote you provided is from 24OCT12 which is post ratification date. He was able to make that statement because our contract facilitated the actions, correct? How does that statement prove the 50 seaters were on their way out regardless?
Anyway, I too appreciate the cordial debate. We should probably just agree to disagree.
![Big Grin](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
![EEK!](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/eek.gif)
![Big Grin](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
![johnso29 is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
![Purple Drank is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I'm not contesting that it is a threat, but if the company signs a commitment to fly them we have zero guarantee that they will be out the door early. We can attempt to call their bluff, but at what cost? Do we go years without a contract?
To be fair, the EB quote you provided is from 24OCT12 which is post ratification date. He was able to make that statement because our contract facilitated the actions, correct? How does that statement prove the 50 seaters were on their way out regardless?
Anyway, I too appreciate the cordial debate. We should probably just agree to disagree.
Unless you want to keep going, in order to prevent ourselves from saying something stupid to our wives.
![Big Grin](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
To be fair, the EB quote you provided is from 24OCT12 which is post ratification date. He was able to make that statement because our contract facilitated the actions, correct? How does that statement prove the 50 seaters were on their way out regardless?
Anyway, I too appreciate the cordial debate. We should probably just agree to disagree.
![Big Grin](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
![EEK!](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/eek.gif)
![Big Grin](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
That said, going back to EB's comments both in the Q2 and Q3 transcripts, I think it's fair to say that CR2s didn't become unpopular with our passengers starting in July of 2012. They were unpopular before.
And before July I'm certain the CR9 already was better in CASMs, popularity and on the balance sheet than the CR2. All of this was known. But imagine if last April they had said these very things? We'd have a quote to point to and say "the CR2s really are dying and we don't have to give up more 70+ seaters to get rid of them!" Instead, we heard about GTFs on CR2s and how we were going to order 700 or 1000 or something Q400s.
Also, just imagine if last April Delta had been approaching B&A about ordering more jets if they agree to take 50 seaters off our hands? Adding more 70 seaters would've really been a harder sell then.
But trust me, I know what the stamp of approval and the time value of money on a 4-6.5-1-1 raise plays into a TA passing.
![forgot to bid is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
![johnso29 is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,946
![Default](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/icons/icon1.gif)
History lesson...that pay rate was won when DAL got the 2000 United + 1 pay rate. [B]The United pay rate was a straight out bribe to get the UAL pilots to accept the proposed UA/US merger that never got off the ground.[/B]
Its also the pay rate that put UA into bankruptcy after which DAL did a "Me, too!" filing the day before the law changed to keep airlines from unilaterally dumping pension plans.
One could make the argument that pay rate put you into bankruptcy court, too.
Its also the pay rate that put UA into bankruptcy after which DAL did a "Me, too!" filing the day before the law changed to keep airlines from unilaterally dumping pension plans.
One could make the argument that pay rate put you into bankruptcy court, too.
Moby,
What you state above is similar to what I have heard except for what I have bolded. They way I heard it was that DAL got a really high rate on our 777 after a long drawn out fight outside of section 6. UAL then piggybacked on our 777 rate for their whole contract.
FWIW I have heard several permutations of this story - perhaps Timbo, Wasatch, or Sailing can give us the whole story.
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 02-17-2013 at 01:01 PM.
![Scoop is offline](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif)
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post