Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-15-2013, 07:34 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Yeahbut...
Here's my take on DALPA:
Is the tail wagging the dog, or is the Dog asleep and the tail is trying to wake it up?
Back in the day...when we had a bunch of small bases and few commuters, I went to many, many, many LEC meetings in BOS, as I lived 45 miles north. Many of us B scale 727 Engineers would car pool and drive in together, and we'd listen and talk, and put up resolutions, etc. and we were all in touch with our Reps, and this was BEFORE the Internet and Cell Phones! Yeah! We actually had to call each other on a land line or go to a meeting to find out what the Fark was going on....
AND WE DID!
AND we finally got rid of the B scale!
How?
We showed up at meetings and YELLED AND SCREAMED ABOUT IT!!
Fast fwd 25 years:
All the little bases are closed, over 50% of the pilot group commutes, nobody shows up at LEC meetings in ATL. Nobody. In a base of over 4,500, maybe 30 guys show up! Maybe. And 10 of them are on the LEC or Committee guys.
Well, what is the LEC supposed to think? "Well, I guess if nobody shows up and calls us out on it, they don't care, so it must be OK if we just bend over and take it in the pooper again..."
The internet has made it much too easy to beoch here online, vs. showing up and screaming at your Reps. Believe me, MGT takes a headcount from the meetings. They know how much real angst is out there based on the meeting turnout. Until we start showing up by the hundreds, and yelling and screaming, well, "Proactive Engagement" is what we are going to get.
Now...is Proactive Engagement good enough? Well, we have been FAT on pilots for a couple years now, but we have not furloughed. Is that because RA is smart enough not to kick the hornets nest, and just cary the extra bodies, sitting on reserve, paid 72/mo. to do nothing, just to keep the peace?
I think he is that smart, I think he will cary the extra bodies, because they will vote YES to a 6wk contract that gave us 4, 8.5, 3, 3.
Do you think that would have ever passed if we had 500 guys out on furlough?
But now you see what we just approved; more 'efficiencies' that will put hiring off for another year or more, just as guys are finally turning 65, and we continue to shrink our body count.
RA2 is no idiot, he knows you catch more flys with honey than vinegar. Dalpa can't throw down if we are not showing up at meetings and demanding more.
Internet talk is cheap, and much too easy, but counts for nothing. IF you (we) want to see real change, we have to show up at meeting with torches and pitchforks, just like we did in 1988-90 to fight against the B scale. Until the Troops stop answering the phone, and planes stop moving, well, RA2 doesn't have a problem, and until we show up at meetings and demand more, DALPA has no support or marching orders to go to war.
Here's my take on DALPA:
Is the tail wagging the dog, or is the Dog asleep and the tail is trying to wake it up?
Back in the day...when we had a bunch of small bases and few commuters, I went to many, many, many LEC meetings in BOS, as I lived 45 miles north. Many of us B scale 727 Engineers would car pool and drive in together, and we'd listen and talk, and put up resolutions, etc. and we were all in touch with our Reps, and this was BEFORE the Internet and Cell Phones! Yeah! We actually had to call each other on a land line or go to a meeting to find out what the Fark was going on....
AND WE DID!
AND we finally got rid of the B scale!
How?
We showed up at meetings and YELLED AND SCREAMED ABOUT IT!!
Fast fwd 25 years:
All the little bases are closed, over 50% of the pilot group commutes, nobody shows up at LEC meetings in ATL. Nobody. In a base of over 4,500, maybe 30 guys show up! Maybe. And 10 of them are on the LEC or Committee guys.
Well, what is the LEC supposed to think? "Well, I guess if nobody shows up and calls us out on it, they don't care, so it must be OK if we just bend over and take it in the pooper again..."
The internet has made it much too easy to beoch here online, vs. showing up and screaming at your Reps. Believe me, MGT takes a headcount from the meetings. They know how much real angst is out there based on the meeting turnout. Until we start showing up by the hundreds, and yelling and screaming, well, "Proactive Engagement" is what we are going to get.
Now...is Proactive Engagement good enough? Well, we have been FAT on pilots for a couple years now, but we have not furloughed. Is that because RA is smart enough not to kick the hornets nest, and just cary the extra bodies, sitting on reserve, paid 72/mo. to do nothing, just to keep the peace?
I think he is that smart, I think he will cary the extra bodies, because they will vote YES to a 6wk contract that gave us 4, 8.5, 3, 3.
Do you think that would have ever passed if we had 500 guys out on furlough?
But now you see what we just approved; more 'efficiencies' that will put hiring off for another year or more, just as guys are finally turning 65, and we continue to shrink our body count.
RA2 is no idiot, he knows you catch more flys with honey than vinegar. Dalpa can't throw down if we are not showing up at meetings and demanding more.
Internet talk is cheap, and much too easy, but counts for nothing. IF you (we) want to see real change, we have to show up at meeting with torches and pitchforks, just like we did in 1988-90 to fight against the B scale. Until the Troops stop answering the phone, and planes stop moving, well, RA2 doesn't have a problem, and until we show up at meetings and demand more, DALPA has no support or marching orders to go to war.
02-15-2013, 08:02 PM
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 7,000
Yeahbut...
Here's my take on DALPA:
Is the tail wagging the dog, or is the Dog asleep and the tail is trying to wake it up?
Back in the day...when we had a bunch of small bases and few commuters, I went to many, many, many LEC meetings in BOS, as I lived 45 miles north. Many of us B scale 727 Engineers would car pool and drive in together, and we'd listen and talk, and put up resolutions, etc. and we were all in touch with our Reps, and this was BEFORE the Internet and Cell Phones! Yeah! We actually had to call each other on a land line or go to a meeting to find out what the Fark was going on....
AND WE DID!
AND we finally got rid of the B scale!
How?
We showed up at meetings and YELLED AND SCREAMED ABOUT IT!!
Fast fwd 25 years:
All the little bases are closed, over 50% of the pilot group commutes, nobody shows up at LEC meetings in ATL. Nobody. In a base of over 4,500, maybe 30 guys show up! Maybe. And 10 of them are on the LEC or Committee guys.
Well, what is the LEC supposed to think? "Well, I guess if nobody shows up and calls us out on it, they don't care, so it must be OK if we just bend over and take it in the pooper again..."
The internet has made it much too easy to beoch here online, vs. showing up and screaming at your Reps. Believe me, MGT takes a headcount from the meetings. They know how much real angst is out there based on the meeting turnout. Until we start showing up by the hundreds, and yelling and screaming, well, "Proactive Engagement" is what we are going to get.
Now...is Proactive Engagement good enough? Well, we have been FAT on pilots for a couple years now, but we have not furloughed. Is that because RA is smart enough not to kick the hornets nest, and just cary the extra bodies, sitting on reserve, paid 72/mo. to do nothing, just to keep the peace?
I think he is that smart, I think he will cary the extra bodies, because they will vote YES to a 6wk contract that gave us 4, 8.5, 3, 3.
Do you think that would have ever passed if we had 500 guys out on furlough?
But now you see what we just approved; more 'efficiencies' that will put hiring off for another year or more, just as guys are finally turning 65, and we continue to shrink our body count.
RA2 is no idiot, he knows you catch more flys with honey than vinegar. Dalpa can't throw down if we are not showing up at meetings and demanding more.
Internet talk is cheap, and much too easy, but counts for nothing. IF you (we) want to see real change, we have to show up at meeting with torches and pitchforks, just like we did in 1988-90 to fight against the B scale. Until the Troops stop answering the phone, and planes stop moving, well, RA2 doesn't have a problem, and until we show up at meetings and demand more, DALPA has no support or marching orders to go to war.
Here's my take on DALPA:
Is the tail wagging the dog, or is the Dog asleep and the tail is trying to wake it up?
Back in the day...when we had a bunch of small bases and few commuters, I went to many, many, many LEC meetings in BOS, as I lived 45 miles north. Many of us B scale 727 Engineers would car pool and drive in together, and we'd listen and talk, and put up resolutions, etc. and we were all in touch with our Reps, and this was BEFORE the Internet and Cell Phones! Yeah! We actually had to call each other on a land line or go to a meeting to find out what the Fark was going on....
AND WE DID!
AND we finally got rid of the B scale!
How?
We showed up at meetings and YELLED AND SCREAMED ABOUT IT!!
Fast fwd 25 years:
All the little bases are closed, over 50% of the pilot group commutes, nobody shows up at LEC meetings in ATL. Nobody. In a base of over 4,500, maybe 30 guys show up! Maybe. And 10 of them are on the LEC or Committee guys.
Well, what is the LEC supposed to think? "Well, I guess if nobody shows up and calls us out on it, they don't care, so it must be OK if we just bend over and take it in the pooper again..."
The internet has made it much too easy to beoch here online, vs. showing up and screaming at your Reps. Believe me, MGT takes a headcount from the meetings. They know how much real angst is out there based on the meeting turnout. Until we start showing up by the hundreds, and yelling and screaming, well, "Proactive Engagement" is what we are going to get.
Now...is Proactive Engagement good enough? Well, we have been FAT on pilots for a couple years now, but we have not furloughed. Is that because RA is smart enough not to kick the hornets nest, and just cary the extra bodies, sitting on reserve, paid 72/mo. to do nothing, just to keep the peace?
I think he is that smart, I think he will cary the extra bodies, because they will vote YES to a 6wk contract that gave us 4, 8.5, 3, 3.
Do you think that would have ever passed if we had 500 guys out on furlough?
But now you see what we just approved; more 'efficiencies' that will put hiring off for another year or more, just as guys are finally turning 65, and we continue to shrink our body count.
RA2 is no idiot, he knows you catch more flys with honey than vinegar. Dalpa can't throw down if we are not showing up at meetings and demanding more.
Internet talk is cheap, and much too easy, but counts for nothing. IF you (we) want to see real change, we have to show up at meeting with torches and pitchforks, just like we did in 1988-90 to fight against the B scale. Until the Troops stop answering the phone, and planes stop moving, well, RA2 doesn't have a problem, and until we show up at meetings and demand more, DALPA has no support or marching orders to go to war.
Timbo,
All true and our LAX meetings generally do not have very good attendance either. But I will say that the PUB event last spring when there was a rumor of a early deal was very, very well attended.
Maybe because of the free beer and food, maybe because it was in San Diego where a ton of guys live - Naahhh probably just the free beer!
Scoop
02-15-2013, 08:05 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: MD-88 F/O
Posts: 1,004
Hey 80....just a little something to remember our moment.....DW
02-15-2013, 08:20 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Captain Jack
Posts: 1,003
I won't pretend to speak for Purple, but more often than not I find myself agreeing with what he has to say. When I see such a question posed to him I think, what's wrong with voicing an opinion that is not in line with what the company or ALPA would be putting forth? Do you have to be a "Yes, sir, yes, sir, three bags full" employee or risk being considered unworthy of being part of the group? How else do you seek improvement if everything the men behind the curtain are doing is fine with everyone even when you know it's not? I guess we could all be propagandists, but wouldn't that get old and eventually result in less for our group as a whole? Why not work to improve our position when called for by pointing out how things need improving? I don't recall anyone complaining about 6 short calls being too many....only when the number went up did you hear complaints.
I thought Delta was the end all be all, and was over joyed to get hired on. I still think it's the best place for me--great people, great leadership. But now that I've been here a while I do question some of the moves made and how DALPA doesn't always seem to put up much of a fight like I think they should. So one has to wonder why that is. That doesn't mean I appreciate the work they do and how hard they fight for the line pilot, but am I totally satisfied--no. At times I'm very disappointed. I didn't have an opportunity to see the reasons why I would think this when I applied and was hired. And as I said before I still feel with these negatives that Delta is the best place to be. So hopefully this perspective helps you understand why some of us agree with the opinions of folks like Purple D.
I thought Delta was the end all be all, and was over joyed to get hired on. I still think it's the best place for me--great people, great leadership. But now that I've been here a while I do question some of the moves made and how DALPA doesn't always seem to put up much of a fight like I think they should. So one has to wonder why that is. That doesn't mean I appreciate the work they do and how hard they fight for the line pilot, but am I totally satisfied--no. At times I'm very disappointed. I didn't have an opportunity to see the reasons why I would think this when I applied and was hired. And as I said before I still feel with these negatives that Delta is the best place to be. So hopefully this perspective helps you understand why some of us agree with the opinions of folks like Purple D.
Your post, even when opposing, try to come to solution or point towards an area of need for work. That is far different than posts that are clearly just finger pointing and accusational.
02-15-2013, 08:27 PM
meh
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 828
I won't pretend to speak for Purple, but more often than not I find myself agreeing with what he has to say. When I see such a question posed to him I think, what's wrong with voicing an opinion that is not in line with what the company or ALPA would be putting forth? Do you have to be a "Yes, sir, yes, sir, three bags full" employee or risk being considered unworthy of being part of the group? How else do you seek improvement if everything the men behind the curtain are doing is fine with everyone even when you know it's not? I guess we could all be propagandists, but wouldn't that get old and eventually result in less for our group as a whole? Why not work to improve our position when called for by pointing out how things need improving? I don't recall anyone complaining about 6 short calls being too many....only when the number went up did you hear complaints.
I thought Delta was the end all be all, and was over joyed to get hired on. I still think it's the best place for me--great people, great leadership. But now that I've been here a while I do question some of the moves made and how DALPA doesn't always seem to put up much of a fight like I think they should. So one has to wonder why that is. That doesn't mean I appreciate the work they do and how hard they fight for the line pilot, but am I totally satisfied--no. At times I'm very disappointed. I didn't have an opportunity to see the reasons why I would think this when I applied and was hired. And as I said before I still feel with these negatives that Delta is the best place to be. So hopefully this perspective helps you understand why some of us agree with the opinions of folks like Purple D.
I thought Delta was the end all be all, and was over joyed to get hired on. I still think it's the best place for me--great people, great leadership. But now that I've been here a while I do question some of the moves made and how DALPA doesn't always seem to put up much of a fight like I think they should. So one has to wonder why that is. That doesn't mean I appreciate the work they do and how hard they fight for the line pilot, but am I totally satisfied--no. At times I'm very disappointed. I didn't have an opportunity to see the reasons why I would think this when I applied and was hired. And as I said before I still feel with these negatives that Delta is the best place to be. So hopefully this perspective helps you understand why some of us agree with the opinions of folks like Purple D.
I've read all the TA, and have access to the published numbers, and have a degree in probability and statistics, and another in math. And I will tell you that I almost UNIVERSALLY DISAGREE with the interpretations on the numbers and usage that are posted by johnso, as well as sailingfun and slowplay. While I OFTEN agree with much of the content and almost always am glad to READ what sailing and slow post. However, in my opinion their interpretation of the statistics is almost always wrong and not properly characterized. Even when I might agree that the actual number itself is correct, how they interpret what that number means is wrong.
Average SC sat is an example. The company is not forced to increase pilot staffing on almost ANY average, it is in fact when operations bump up against the outliers of the data that flights are cancelled. It is the NON-AVERAGE high SC use data points in various months and various fleets that force increased staffing. When the company finds a way to spread unused pilot capacity from a low-average area into a high-use area, such as making critical months 1 day shorter, that is when the need for additional pilots is terminated.
By quoting averages, particularly low ones and in areas where we absolutely know that seniority ensures that junior pilots don't see "average" use because they don't have the ability to successfully bid in such a way that they are unused, these guys are like magicians moving your eye away from the REAL critical areas and fooling you with meaningless data that just SOUNDS applicable.
Staffing problems in a scenario where under-staffing and thus cancellation of operations is not an allowable option are driven by "limiting factors" which exist on the outlying edges a standard dev out or so on the applicable probability curves. These "limfacs" are usually caused by usage limitations that SOUND like they won't generally apply (such as 7 SC or ALV +15), and in fact generally WON'T be seen by most pilots... but they are nevertheless the critical limfac that is driving the staffing decision.
02-15-2013, 08:33 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD88
Posts: 456
02-15-2013, 08:51 PM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,738
Honest question... have you ever thought the internet isn't being utilized the way it could be for the good of the union? It seems to me there are many ways (beyond email) it could bring real time input and involvement to the core of the operation. Do you feel the technology is not good enough? Or are things run the way they are because those in charge aren't really interested in that level of outside involvement where information/decision making could more easily extend beyond the inner circle? Maybe the powers that be feel they know better than the average line pilot what is best for the group regardless of whether that is true or not?
When it comes to meetings, the internet is a great way to get info. out quickly, vs. printing it or holding a meeting, but that only works in one direction, info out to members.
The internet is not as relevant to get input from members, especially during a contract negotiations, because there is no substitue for 'face time' at a LEC meeting, where the LEC guy has to stand up in front of the pilot group and be held accountable. It is there he will hear directly from his members, as to what is acceptable and what is not, and there is a good back and forth from the members.
If all it takes to get guys to show up is free beer, I'm buying some Sierra Nevada Ruthless Rye for the next meeting!
For years I've been saying Coucil 44 (ATL) should hold all their LEC meetings at the training hotel, about 5pm, and pay for dinner and drinks! The turnout would be huge!
02-15-2013, 10:24 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
02-15-2013, 10:33 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
02-15-2013, 10:51 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
Internet talk is cheap, and much too easy, but counts for nothing. IF you (we) want to see real change, we have to show up at meeting with torches and pitchforks, just like we did in 1988-90 to fight against the B scale. Until the Troops stop answering the phone, and planes stop moving, well, RA2 doesn't have a problem, and until we show up at meetings and demand more, DALPA has no support or marching orders to go to war.
.
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