Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
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I don't believe they thought they had a tail stall and neither did the NTSB..... This crew failed to use basic flying skills with regards to airspeed control. Then when they stalled the plane they totally screwed up the recovery! The crew didn't utilize proper power application, pitch control, aircraft configuration nor crew communication.
Their reaction was exactly what was spread around for the recovery from a tail stall... it's too similar. I'll agree to disagree with you and the NTSB on that one.
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I was particularly astounded at how the FO just sat there like a bump on a log and let the CA kill her. That's another main place where my suspicion that they both thought it was a tail stall comes from.
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Agreed on their skills.
Their reaction was exactly what was spread around for the recovery from a tail stall... it's too similar. I'll agree to disagree with you and the NTSB on that one.![Smile](https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I was particularly astounded at how the FO just sat there like a bump on a log and let the CA kill her. That's another main place where my suspicion that they both thought it was a tail stall comes from.
Their reaction was exactly what was spread around for the recovery from a tail stall... it's too similar. I'll agree to disagree with you and the NTSB on that one.
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I was particularly astounded at how the FO just sat there like a bump on a log and let the CA kill her. That's another main place where my suspicion that they both thought it was a tail stall comes from.
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As to the NTSB, I think they miss stuff sometimes.
Either way, I think ATR would be idiotic to put boots on that ATR-90 or whatever it is. I think they're idiots to put them on Dash 8s and ATRs now, but that's just me. I had an engineer explain why Citations and the small Embraer jet still use them but if the P180 lives without them, why not a jet?
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I know there are plenty of threads around here on this whole thing but I think it's a bit of a fallacy on some of the other threads to assume the pilots acted in unison and were on the same page the entire event. I think that's impossible to do at any time especially given the little verbal communication that existed in the heat of the moment.
So, when the FO pulled up the flaps it just makes me wonder if she thought it was a tail stall? I say this because a friend of mine that was at Great Lakes and said a good amount of time spent on that NOAA tail stall video and proper recovery techniques. From their training's POV he says, flying 1900Ds in ice meant tail stalls were a threat.
So when you watch that video it's pull back, flaps up... or die. Actual Tail Stall Event (NASA Research Flight)
I've always wondered if Colgan hammered that same video and thought process into its pillots? And given what the FO was seeing with the Captain pulling on the elevator the way he evidently was, maybe she wasn't acting out of ignorance but rather in her mind properly for the tail stall she might have thought they were in.
Just a thought.
So, when the FO pulled up the flaps it just makes me wonder if she thought it was a tail stall? I say this because a friend of mine that was at Great Lakes and said a good amount of time spent on that NOAA tail stall video and proper recovery techniques. From their training's POV he says, flying 1900Ds in ice meant tail stalls were a threat.
So when you watch that video it's pull back, flaps up... or die. Actual Tail Stall Event (NASA Research Flight)
I've always wondered if Colgan hammered that same video and thought process into its pillots? And given what the FO was seeing with the Captain pulling on the elevator the way he evidently was, maybe she wasn't acting out of ignorance but rather in her mind properly for the tail stall she might have thought they were in.
Just a thought.
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I thought the same thing. I had seen the icing video when I flew part 135 and again when I flew at the regionals. If I recall correctly they brought this up at the NTSB hearing and pointed out that the Q400 and CRJ weren't even susceptible to tail stalls in icing. I'd be surprised if they still show that video.
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If you'll notice though, he didn't bump the power near what you should for a stall recovery.
As far as tail stall recovery that was passed around, it was mostly centered around getting the flaps up... little was spoken about power for the most part. We're talking about cultural things here and not official training, so things are going to have variance.
Now, how he reacted to the pusher: that was standard Pinnacle/Colgan training. Getting the pusher in the sim was a fail event if it dropped your altitude more than 100 feet or so, so whenever someone would trigger it they would override it to try to maintain altitude and thus not fail the maneuver. Brilliant, isn't it?
Last edited by 80ktsClamp; 01-25-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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Eagle did resume flying the ATR out of ORD at some point after the accident. It was there until roughly 2000-2001.
If my memory serves they extended the deice boot further back at the area in front of the ailerons. There were some other smaller changes as well I believe.
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Hey 80 I have a mini person coming in Aug, how do you request some family leave?
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If you're on reserve, just squish all your x-days off together around the planned birth date and that'll really help the hit on pay. I was able to get away without using any family leave!
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Like I said about the CA, he fits the "middle aged career changer who went to Gulfstream" profile. Just jump and react and hope he did it right.
If you'll notice though, he didn't bump the power near what you should for a stall recovery.
As far as tail stall recovery that was passed around, it was mostly centered around getting the flaps up... little was spoken about power for the most part. We're talking about cultural things here and not official training, so things are going to have variance.
Now, how he reacted to the pusher: that was standard Pinnacle/Colgan training. Getting the pusher in the sim was a fail event if it dropped your altitude more than 100 feet or so, so whenever someone would trigger it they would override it to try to maintain altitude and thus not fail the maneuver. Brilliant, isn't it?
If you'll notice though, he didn't bump the power near what you should for a stall recovery.
As far as tail stall recovery that was passed around, it was mostly centered around getting the flaps up... little was spoken about power for the most part. We're talking about cultural things here and not official training, so things are going to have variance.
Now, how he reacted to the pusher: that was standard Pinnacle/Colgan training. Getting the pusher in the sim was a fail event if it dropped your altitude more than 100 feet or so, so whenever someone would trigger it they would override it to try to maintain altitude and thus not fail the maneuver. Brilliant, isn't it?
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/speeches/...CAA-100212.pdf
We have a pilot that works for us whose wife was a NTSB accident investigator on this crash. I had the opportunity to fly with him on multiple trips and discuss the details of the crash at length, pretty cut and dry really.
On another note I have a friend who is the lead program manager for a -8 program for a regional carrier. He spoke with De-Havilland about the crash and their test pilots and engineers said that after reviewing the data if the crew had done nothing except add power the plan would have regained controlled flight!
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