Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
... I just don't understand your point. .... as I've said before, but it seems to me, that we've always had certain flying that we don't do. And Delta is generally free to do whatever they want in those areas, subject to whatever restrictions we place on them. How is the current situation any different?
- Pinnacle contract directly binds Delta management
- Pinnacle contract is 4 to 5 years longer in duration than the Delta PWA agreement. It therefore supersedes and preempts our next Section 6.
- Pinnacle pilots are negotiating independently ... we dont know what they are doing. If I were Whychor, I'd go for narrow body flying and no, I'm not kidding. I cite for example this Air Canada Jazz operation.
Let's take them one section at a time. Here's 1D11:
The Company will fill a minimum of 35% of the aggregate of all positions in Delta pilot new-hire classes in each trailing twelve-month period (to the extent airmen are available) with ALPA-represented airmen at Delta Connection Carriers, subject to such airmen meeting the Company’s competitive hiring standards, and subject to the Company’s objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots. Airmen who flow up pursuant to LOA #9 and LOA #10 count toward satisfaction of such minimum percentage.
How does the Pinnacle agreement violate that?
The Company will fill a minimum of 35% of the aggregate of all positions in Delta pilot new-hire classes in each trailing twelve-month period (to the extent airmen are available) with ALPA-represented airmen at Delta Connection Carriers, subject to such airmen meeting the Company’s competitive hiring standards, and subject to the Company’s objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots. Airmen who flow up pursuant to LOA #9 and LOA #10 count toward satisfaction of such minimum percentage.
How does the Pinnacle agreement violate that?
As for enforcement, I've always argued flows were a bad idea and weak. I am not sure who has the right to grieve LOA #9 and #10 because we negotiated those sections as part of a quid quo pro for our own furlough protection (flow down). I do not intend to to grieve that violation and have not tried to figure out a way to run the gauntlet to prosecute an unpopular grievance to protect members who are not even Delta pilots yet.
We also "authorize" a lower standard. I am not talking about college degrees. I am talking standards like crew rest, which we consider to be "safety." Why should we get meals on an international turn if Pinnacle pilots are able to do international turns without meals? Why do we need more rest than they do? For safety?
Management is always going to want the less expensive standard. ALPA is saying that standard is fine on the Delta property. Thus it makes it harder to justify what we see as our "quality of life" while on the road 300 hours a month.
Further, the Pinnacle agreement ties their scope to not seeking contract improvements. Six months after their amenable date, their job protections disappear. Is that the expectation we should provide Delta management?
Management will insist "if it good enough for them, it is good enough for you." ( speculative, but logical )
A big reason I left the top 25% of an express carrier and started over at Delta is because I wanted my Rep to represent me to Delta management. The pay cut was easily justified by the knowledge that Delta pilot autonomy would ensure we controlled Delta flying.
Now the Delta pilots are in the same role as Comair and ASA were in 2000. We are a "vendor" able only to contract with our management for "our" flying. ( "vendor" is the word used by six Reps I have spoken to since Roberts' interpretation ).
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-19-2013 at 07:45 AM.
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
.. .
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-19-2013 at 08:15 AM.
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
PG,
If Delta pilots owned all Delta flying, regardless, then any NEW operation would by default be Delta flying for the Delta pilots. Song is an example of this principle in action.
If we define our flying narrowly to what we perform, then NEW flying by definition is NOT OURS. As the Air Canada pilots discovered as they watched 757's fly way at the hands of AC Jazz "RJ pilots."
Consider ....
Delta has a whole handfull of derelict certificates sitting in filing cabinets ....
When do we object? Now, when we can make a difference, or do we let management establish the pattern ... which they can cram down on us when it is something we care about? Delta management has already run charter operations using "non permitted aircraft."
By re-defining "Delta flying" we have to proactively scope what we think the Company might do. I prefer the default position that we own it all.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-19-2013 at 08:07 AM.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Can Hawaiian use "inter island feed" from Delta marketing/network/sales/etc. to fill up a mainland-bound plane? IOW, can they get DL system pax that DAL pilots never fly, on some of those legs to fill up the mainland bound legs?
If so, that will take a bite out of some of our own mainland-HI flying because we fly to several cities there from the mainland. If HAL can do this, they can funnel DL pax from cities we fly to, and even from cities we don't, into mainland bound cities we do fly to. Win for HI, loss for DL.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Reroute is correct. There was a fleet agreement, not a LOA per se signed by The Delta CEO, JC Lawson, OH President and Prater in early March 2007. Those were the individuals on the signature pages. It provided a fleet agreement for their pilots until 2011.
After this PNCL agreement came out, the mention of this agreement was the first time I had ever heard about it, but it does exist and I have read it myself.
It also was an agreement with Delta Management, OH Management and ALPA on a guaranteed number of RJ Hulls of the permitted aircraft as allowed by the Delta PWA.
After this PNCL agreement came out, the mention of this agreement was the first time I had ever heard about it, but it does exist and I have read it myself.
It also was an agreement with Delta Management, OH Management and ALPA on a guaranteed number of RJ Hulls of the permitted aircraft as allowed by the Delta PWA.
1) I don't believe you are correct. Votes have occurred on LOAs via conference call previously.
2) What is the issue that needs to be voted on? Are you, or anyone, claiming that this agreement violates our PWA? If Delta changed their policy and decided we no longer had to wear hats (!), would the MEC have to vote on that? If they changed their policy that said we DO have to wear a bow tie, would the MEC get to vote on that?
I know you believe the ALPA C&BL were violated. I know many, many others disagree. And, if I haven't said it enough already this morning, I trust them to make the right decision, primarily because I personally know them.
Thank you for your opinion -- I, and apparently many others, respectfully disagree.
2) What is the issue that needs to be voted on? Are you, or anyone, claiming that this agreement violates our PWA? If Delta changed their policy and decided we no longer had to wear hats (!), would the MEC have to vote on that? If they changed their policy that said we DO have to wear a bow tie, would the MEC get to vote on that?
I know you believe the ALPA C&BL were violated. I know many, many others disagree. And, if I haven't said it enough already this morning, I trust them to make the right decision, primarily because I personally know them.
Thank you for your opinion -- I, and apparently many others, respectfully disagree.
My understanding is a vote can happen via conference call. Happens all of the time. Last one was the Virgin Australia loa I beleive. What cannot happen as I understand it is direction. Could be wrong though.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
There is some talk out of national that ALPA will try a single carrier petition because of the way this is structured. If that is true, then Lee Moak went for the "Hail Mary" of unity and I'll send a $1000 check to make a bronze statue in his honor. But, somehow I think my $1,000 is safe.
Then the retroactive lawsuits from CMR, ASA, etc would start flowing in. Single Carrier between DL and PCL would be a disaster with virtually no upside beyond symbolic hyperbole and massive negative consequences that could gut our seniority list to afford one arbitrarty ill timed pilot group a windfall of epic proportions. Even the "upside" would be meaningless as we still wouldn't own the flying then that we don't own now. If they simply relabeled PCL flying as "Delta pilot flying" then they could just re-shop that same number of large RJ's into the open market, that the PCL agreement helped further lower, for an even lower RFP. They could then furlough Delta pilots, possibly after many PCL pilots got "greater than a staple" with current Delta pilots hitting the streets while current PCL pilots stayed employed in current DL planes because of their greater than a staple system wide number.
I understand your desire for one list, all flying, etc. But this is NOT how to go about it.
Well if that's true, that is a huge paradigm shift. While in mediation prior to their strike, they were expressly forbidden by federal mediators for even making a demand for anything with a DL management signature. How and why was that changed, and why is that poisionous practice still being used?
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: A big one that looks like a little one
Posts: 633
More Monday morning quarterbacking:
A certain elevated executive at Delta said last night that the Pinnacle bridge agreement was an agreement between Delta, Pinnacle, and ALPA. So......why were we kept in the dark?
Rather than debate the finer points with someone who admittedly doesn't know much about section 1, I'd rather point out the following:
Our bargaining agent was needlessly kept in the dark while the people that signed our paycheck subverted our bargaining position and pay. What does this say about Delta's feelings towards ANY union?
A certain elevated executive at Delta said last night that the Pinnacle bridge agreement was an agreement between Delta, Pinnacle, and ALPA. So......why were we kept in the dark?
Rather than debate the finer points with someone who admittedly doesn't know much about section 1, I'd rather point out the following:
Our bargaining agent was needlessly kept in the dark while the people that signed our paycheck subverted our bargaining position and pay. What does this say about Delta's feelings towards ANY union?
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
The problem with a "conference call" is that the rules having to do with setting the agenda and conducting the meeting are subverted. A conference call is much more of a "presentation" style where the party owning the call mostly controls who speaks. While I know someone can speak up on a "go to meeting" it would be exasperating for someone to present their case in the fashion I do on this web board. Frankly, it would seem impolite. Is there a "Roberts Rules" for iPhone app?
Further, how is the vote recorded? Where can members see the recap & notes? Matters of union governance need to be conducted in open session. Members should be afforded the opportunity to address the MEC. How is any of that done via a closed loop call?
But, on this issue impolitic action is needed. Folks who have spent their whole professional lives following a strict Chain of Command need both the information and the opportunity to speak up.
Of course, my Reps have not called me to advise how our MEC came up with their "finding." I'll admit I'm guessing they at least held an informal conference call.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post