Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-19-2013, 05:38 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
First, thank you for your civility.
There is a short answer and a much longer answer to your question. The short answer is:
BEFORE: Delta flying, as defined in our PWA, is all Delta Air Lines system flying. We permit some of that flying to be flown by others in accordance with the terms of our PWA.
NOW: Delta flying is defined, and limited by, our PWA. Flying not performed by the Delta pilots is not Delta flying.
This is the "none of your business" argument brought by ALPA staff counsel. It is none of our MEC's business what Pinnacle does, or for that matter what any airline does, as long as it does not modify our Section 1.
When it was observed that Pinnacle's Bridge Agreement does modify the Delta PWA Section 1 in numerous places (1D11, 1D12, f-NWA LOA language) then ALPA staff counsel told our MEC that our "Scope" section includes a lot of stuff that is not scope. (I was told there would be an opportunity to rebut Bill Roberts with his own statements in CC Air and Comair / Comair litigation. Despite two offers of a meeting and my availability, he returned to Herndon, VA)
So what changed are the definitions of Delta flying and scope. I see no reason why these changes would not be operable to Virgin Atlantic, Alaska, or any other group that wanted to sit down and do deals with Delta management.
There is a short answer and a much longer answer to your question. The short answer is:
BEFORE: Delta flying, as defined in our PWA, is all Delta Air Lines system flying. We permit some of that flying to be flown by others in accordance with the terms of our PWA.
NOW: Delta flying is defined, and limited by, our PWA. Flying not performed by the Delta pilots is not Delta flying.
This is the "none of your business" argument brought by ALPA staff counsel. It is none of our MEC's business what Pinnacle does, or for that matter what any airline does, as long as it does not modify our Section 1.
When it was observed that Pinnacle's Bridge Agreement does modify the Delta PWA Section 1 in numerous places (1D11, 1D12, f-NWA LOA language) then ALPA staff counsel told our MEC that our "Scope" section includes a lot of stuff that is not scope. (I was told there would be an opportunity to rebut Bill Roberts with his own statements in CC Air and Comair / Comair litigation. Despite two offers of a meeting and my availability, he returned to Herndon, VA)
So what changed are the definitions of Delta flying and scope. I see no reason why these changes would not be operable to Virgin Atlantic, Alaska, or any other group that wanted to sit down and do deals with Delta management.
01-19-2013, 05:48 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Never mind ... no need to complicate matters.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-19-2013 at 06:01 AM.
01-19-2013, 06:09 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Whether we like it or not, the Delta MEC has ALWAYS been in the role of representing just one of many vendors who perform Delta flying. How is today's situation different from 5 years ago, when ASA and CMR, as well as all the others, were vendors flying aircraft painted like Delta and acting like they were Delta? As I've said, we let that cat out of the bag years ago when DALPA didn't put restrictions in the PWA to prohibit Delta from painting vendor's aircraft to look exactly like a Delta airplane. That was a tremendous failure, imo.
With regard to the Comair LOA, that was a shocker outside of the small handfull of people on the signature page. It does not make it right. Had we known the same objections would have been raised as are being made now.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-19-2013 at 06:25 AM.
01-19-2013, 06:38 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Hey alfaromeo!!! Check it out!!! 
Alfa Romeos to be sold in U.S. again by year's end - Business on NBCNews.com
Alfa Romeos to be sold in U.S. again by year's end - Business on NBCNews.com
01-19-2013, 06:42 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Mods ... this is not political... it is up here because it is funny as heck and I can't believe they are doing it.
------
The President of Vice (Kindle Single): The Onion: Amazon.com: Kindle Store
Thanks for doing me a real solid Reddit. I'm 'Diamond' Joe Biden and I'll be answering your questions today beginning at 2 PM Central/3 PM Eastern to celebrate today's release of my new autobiography The President of Vice, a hot-**** Kindle Single published by The Onion.
You are welcome to ask me anything about the book, how to round up tail and make them wail, my Trans Am, things you can make into a pipe, Barack, or where we can hook up later if you're a smokin' hot mamacita.
I'm fairly hammered right now so I'll try to answer as many of your questions as I can before I pass out. I don't know what other crap I'm supposed to type here. Please buy this book or some real rough dudes are gonna hurt Joe real bad. Until then, grab a brewski and enjoy the ride.
To verify that I am real person, a tweet from my publisher @TheOnion
UPDATE: Got plenty of digits from the Reddit Ladies. A whole lotta poon prospects from this AMA. ****, I'd love to stay and chat longer, but I gots to split. Please buy my book, I still really need the dough.
Until next time, enjoy this.
–Diamond Joe Biden
------ First Amazon Review ------
An illuminating and inspiring true story of an American hero, January 18, 2013
By J. Ferber
Amazon Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: The President of Vice (Kindle Single) (Kindle Edition)
You'll laugh and cry your way through one man's incredible and improbable transformation from Joey Scranton to Vice President Joe "Diamond" Biden. The author withholds nothing and spills his heart and soul onto every page of what is sure to become a literary classic. Mandatory reading for any American and all who seek the wisdom and inspiration of one of this great nation's finest public servants.
and someone apparently hacked a Biden Twitter feed:
Thanks for all the upskirts everyone. On a serious note, Ol' Joe is thinking about his legacy and needs to start working on his V.P. Library. I'm planning to have an extensive collection of amateur girlfriend pics.
If you got 'em, send 'em to:
1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington, DC 20500
------
The President of Vice (Kindle Single): The Onion: Amazon.com: Kindle Store
Thanks for doing me a real solid Reddit. I'm 'Diamond' Joe Biden and I'll be answering your questions today beginning at 2 PM Central/3 PM Eastern to celebrate today's release of my new autobiography The President of Vice, a hot-**** Kindle Single published by The Onion.
You are welcome to ask me anything about the book, how to round up tail and make them wail, my Trans Am, things you can make into a pipe, Barack, or where we can hook up later if you're a smokin' hot mamacita.
I'm fairly hammered right now so I'll try to answer as many of your questions as I can before I pass out. I don't know what other crap I'm supposed to type here. Please buy this book or some real rough dudes are gonna hurt Joe real bad. Until then, grab a brewski and enjoy the ride.
To verify that I am real person, a tweet from my publisher @TheOnion
UPDATE: Got plenty of digits from the Reddit Ladies. A whole lotta poon prospects from this AMA. ****, I'd love to stay and chat longer, but I gots to split. Please buy my book, I still really need the dough.
Until next time, enjoy this.
–Diamond Joe Biden
------ First Amazon Review ------
An illuminating and inspiring true story of an American hero, January 18, 2013
By J. Ferber
Amazon Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: The President of Vice (Kindle Single) (Kindle Edition)
You'll laugh and cry your way through one man's incredible and improbable transformation from Joey Scranton to Vice President Joe "Diamond" Biden. The author withholds nothing and spills his heart and soul onto every page of what is sure to become a literary classic. Mandatory reading for any American and all who seek the wisdom and inspiration of one of this great nation's finest public servants.
and someone apparently hacked a Biden Twitter feed:
Thanks for all the upskirts everyone. On a serious note, Ol' Joe is thinking about his legacy and needs to start working on his V.P. Library. I'm planning to have an extensive collection of amateur girlfriend pics.
If you got 'em, send 'em to:
1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington, DC 20500
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-19-2013 at 06:58 AM.
01-19-2013, 07:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
And you, for yours.
I apologize for being slow, but I just don't understand your point. I'm trying.... I really am. How do you come to this conclusion. I'm no Section 1 expert, as I've said before, but it seems to me, that we've always had certain flying that we don't do. And Delta is generally free to do whatever they want in those areas, subject to whatever restrictions we place on them. How is the current situation any different? In the past, they made an agreement with Pinnacle Inc. to fly certain portions of the flying that the Delta pilots didn't fly. Now, they've done the same. Pinnacle IS still a subsidiary of Delta, right? The Pinnacle pilots are Pinnacle employees, not Delta employees, right?
You're gonna have to speak slowly again. Let's take them one section at a time. Here's 1D11:
The Company will fill a minimum of 35% of the aggregate of all positions in Delta pilot new-hire classes in each trailing twelve-month period (to the extent airmen are available) with ALPA-represented airmen at Delta Connection Carriers, subject to such airmen meeting the Company’s competitive hiring standards, and subject to the Company’s objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots. Airmen who flow up pursuant to LOA #9 and LOA #10 count toward satisfaction of such minimum percentage.
How does the Pinnacle agreement violate that? If you're saying its due to the hiring standards issue, I think we have to wait and see who ultimately comes on board to determine whether they fit that bill. And even if some don't, then the Company could (rightfully, imo) say that individual doesn't count toward the 35% number, but still be in compliance, so long as they DO hire a minimum of 35% who do.
I have no problem with any of those groups sitting down and doing deals with Delta for the flying that we have already stated we don't do.
There is a short answer and a much longer answer to your question. The short answer is:
BEFORE: Delta flying, as defined in our PWA, is all Delta Air Lines system flying. We permit some of that flying to be flown by others in accordance with the terms of our PWA.
NOW: Delta flying is defined, and limited by, our PWA. Flying not performed by the Delta pilots is not Delta flying.
BEFORE: Delta flying, as defined in our PWA, is all Delta Air Lines system flying. We permit some of that flying to be flown by others in accordance with the terms of our PWA.
NOW: Delta flying is defined, and limited by, our PWA. Flying not performed by the Delta pilots is not Delta flying.
The Company will fill a minimum of 35% of the aggregate of all positions in Delta pilot new-hire classes in each trailing twelve-month period (to the extent airmen are available) with ALPA-represented airmen at Delta Connection Carriers, subject to such airmen meeting the Company’s competitive hiring standards, and subject to the Company’s objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots. Airmen who flow up pursuant to LOA #9 and LOA #10 count toward satisfaction of such minimum percentage.
How does the Pinnacle agreement violate that? If you're saying its due to the hiring standards issue, I think we have to wait and see who ultimately comes on board to determine whether they fit that bill. And even if some don't, then the Company could (rightfully, imo) say that individual doesn't count toward the 35% number, but still be in compliance, so long as they DO hire a minimum of 35% who do.
I have no problem with any of those groups sitting down and doing deals with Delta for the flying that we have already stated we don't do.
01-19-2013, 07:03 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 320A
Posts: 333
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! They are under the command of the elected reps, not the handful of guys who post here anonymously. If you have an issue with how the elected reps are acting, you have tools at your disposal. At the lowest level, you can provide your input - and I know you've done that quite emphatically already, to multiple people. If you still disagree with the position, and you can rally sufficient people who agree with you, the rep can be replaced. But one person, or even a dozen unelected keyboard warriors, don't get to dictate the collective actions of the MEC. Thank goodness!
Because your position is wrong?
Because your position is wrong?
01-19-2013, 07:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
01-19-2013, 07:24 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 7,000
How about a suggestion? Let's have an intelligent debate without all the hyperbole. Shall we?
I DO have a different perspective toward ALPA than you and many. And its for one simple reason.Most of you see "ALPA" as some amorphous blob, or even worse, see it as a single person (Moak), with evil intentions, or incompetent, or both, whose primary job is to find ways to hose over the Delta pilots (or sometimes just "you").
I bet most guys on here percieve our DALPA Reps as I do, hardworking, co-workers who are fighting for a better career for all of us. That by the way the way does not mean that I always agree with them.
I see the reality. The "political ALPA", which is really the only part people complain about, consists of only about 30 guys at the Delta level, and (from what I know) about 10-15 guys at the National level. I know the vast majority of these guys. And with very few exceptions (and there ARE a few exceptions in my opinion), all of these guys are upright, hard working, honest, intelligent human beings, and fellow pilots who do the best they can to make the best collective decision they can for the long term betterment of the Delta pilot group (in the case of the 30), or for the betterment of ALL ALPA pilots (in the case of the 10-15). While there are certainly a few with hidden agendas, I simply don't believe the majority do.
Agree 100% icluding the exceptions. Heres my exception: I was told repeatedly that Lee Moak had no Plans to run for ALPA National when guys (including me) were dumbstruck with his "evolving" postions on Scope - specifically from a 70 seat "line in the sand" to allowing 76 seaters. Lo and behold, Lee had political aspirations beyond DAL that coincided nicely with his Scope views. Very convenient.
I have tremendous respect for their willingness to put up with the BS from keyboard warriors who constantly disparage their hard work, assign nefarious motives to them, and always have the answer for every problem that is so obvious to see. Yet, are seldom willing to actually attempt to do any of the heavy lifting. Having said that, a few on this board HAVE stepped up to the plate, and I applaud them for their efforts. I am quite confident that they may end up with a different view of "ALPA" once they get involved more deeply. I've seen it happen over and over again. Some on the current MEC got involved because they had all the answers, only to find out the problems are a bit different when you actually are responsible and held accountable for the effects of your decisions.
And BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I am NOT (nor have I ever) been elected to one of these ALPA positions, but I do do ALPA work.
Not ready? Caught off guard? Lacking power?
For what?
Because Delta signed a contract for flying that is outside the scope of our PWA, just like they've done dozens of times before? Because Delta (possibly - we still don't know for sure) changed a corporate policy (modified hiring standards), something totally within their right to do?
Not according to yesterdays Code-A-Phone. Lets hope its correct.
I don't recall DALPA being consulted when Delta changed their paint scheme. I don't recall DALPA being consulted when Delta changed their logo. I don't recall DALPA being consulted when Delta changed lawn service providers at the GO. I don't recall DALPA being consulted when Delta changed caterers. And on and on. We have a PWA that says we will fly any aircraft that [fill in the blank]. We ALSO have policies that govern and limit what others can do. But how Delta (or these others) do that is totally up to them. IMO.
I just don't see the problem here, other than I agree with Sink r8, that purely for optics, DALPA should have been consulted and given a heads up. I honestly don't know whether they were, but the appearances seem to indicate they weren't.
I DO have a different perspective toward ALPA than you and many. And its for one simple reason.Most of you see "ALPA" as some amorphous blob, or even worse, see it as a single person (Moak), with evil intentions, or incompetent, or both, whose primary job is to find ways to hose over the Delta pilots (or sometimes just "you").
I bet most guys on here percieve our DALPA Reps as I do, hardworking, co-workers who are fighting for a better career for all of us. That by the way the way does not mean that I always agree with them.
I see the reality. The "political ALPA", which is really the only part people complain about, consists of only about 30 guys at the Delta level, and (from what I know) about 10-15 guys at the National level. I know the vast majority of these guys. And with very few exceptions (and there ARE a few exceptions in my opinion), all of these guys are upright, hard working, honest, intelligent human beings, and fellow pilots who do the best they can to make the best collective decision they can for the long term betterment of the Delta pilot group (in the case of the 30), or for the betterment of ALL ALPA pilots (in the case of the 10-15). While there are certainly a few with hidden agendas, I simply don't believe the majority do.
Agree 100% icluding the exceptions. Heres my exception: I was told repeatedly that Lee Moak had no Plans to run for ALPA National when guys (including me) were dumbstruck with his "evolving" postions on Scope - specifically from a 70 seat "line in the sand" to allowing 76 seaters. Lo and behold, Lee had political aspirations beyond DAL that coincided nicely with his Scope views. Very convenient.
I have tremendous respect for their willingness to put up with the BS from keyboard warriors who constantly disparage their hard work, assign nefarious motives to them, and always have the answer for every problem that is so obvious to see. Yet, are seldom willing to actually attempt to do any of the heavy lifting. Having said that, a few on this board HAVE stepped up to the plate, and I applaud them for their efforts. I am quite confident that they may end up with a different view of "ALPA" once they get involved more deeply. I've seen it happen over and over again. Some on the current MEC got involved because they had all the answers, only to find out the problems are a bit different when you actually are responsible and held accountable for the effects of your decisions.
And BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I am NOT (nor have I ever) been elected to one of these ALPA positions, but I do do ALPA work.
Not ready? Caught off guard? Lacking power?
For what?
Because Delta signed a contract for flying that is outside the scope of our PWA, just like they've done dozens of times before? Because Delta (possibly - we still don't know for sure) changed a corporate policy (modified hiring standards), something totally within their right to do?
Not according to yesterdays Code-A-Phone. Lets hope its correct.
I don't recall DALPA being consulted when Delta changed their paint scheme. I don't recall DALPA being consulted when Delta changed their logo. I don't recall DALPA being consulted when Delta changed lawn service providers at the GO. I don't recall DALPA being consulted when Delta changed caterers. And on and on. We have a PWA that says we will fly any aircraft that [fill in the blank]. We ALSO have policies that govern and limit what others can do. But how Delta (or these others) do that is totally up to them. IMO.
I just don't see the problem here, other than I agree with Sink r8, that purely for optics, DALPA should have been consulted and given a heads up. I honestly don't know whether they were, but the appearances seem to indicate they weren't.
I believe our DALPA reps are very hardworking with many responding 24-7 to E-mails and phone inquiries. This however does not mean that we should not ever be critical of them. Keep it professional and give them the benefit of the doubt, but it is a volunteer position and I am 100% certain they all knew what they would be getting into.
Scoop
01-19-2013, 07:31 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
Unfortunately, we as pilots have always refused to have one union. Rather we are an Association of individual airline's pilot unions. We answer to our own MEC, rather than National, and that harms all of us ultimately. I agree with you that we should be ONE union....ALPA....but pilots are unwilling to subordinate their individual desires to an organization that big. The most they were willing to do is permit each airline to develop its own. And it is only natural that the interests of one pilot group will occasionally conflict with that of others. This doesn't mean I favor an independent union, but I do wish ALPA was a stronger national entity rather than a collection of individual airline unions.
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