Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-18-2013, 05:15 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
And your point??
Elected leaders aren't always correct.
I agree completely. But the smart man will, at some point, look in the mirror and wonder if the whole world is wrong, or perhaps if he is. Just my opinion.
DALPA Leaders: Ready....Aim.....Fire.
APC Posters: FIRE.......
Elected leaders aren't always correct.
I agree completely. But the smart man will, at some point, look in the mirror and wonder if the whole world is wrong, or perhaps if he is. Just my opinion.
DALPA Leaders: Ready....Aim.....Fire.
APC Posters: FIRE.......
I've never needed DALPA for any of the stuff people say they are great at. I hope I never do. I am thankful pilots step up and volunteer their time for the benefit of other pilots. All of that said, I think it is apparent that you and I have a different perspective wrt ALPA. You willingly wrap yourself in the womb of D/ALPA, where I find them often lacking. I don't seek their kinship nor do I need them to stroke my head and tell me I'm a good boy.
If you review this last crisis du jour, I think you will find that DALPA leaders were NOT ready. They were caught off guard. When they aimed and fired, it was not from a position of power, but instead the position lacking of power.
01-18-2013, 06:07 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
You obviously have VERY LITTLE faith in the elected reps. If they felt the code-a-phone message was inappropriate, a special meeting would have been called before now. Unless you are accusing Kingsley of doing the same thing you accused Lee... and Tim....and....xxx and xxx.... of.
When will it stop?
When will some on here admit that the MEC makes the decisions, and we may not always agree with their collective decision, but that is how a representational democracy works??? And it also smacks of complete, utter, arrogance, to continue to claim that I am right, and EVERYONE else is wrong, and its a grand conspiracy by EVERYONE else involved.
Let it go. Your elected leaders have spoken.
When will it stop?
When will some on here admit that the MEC makes the decisions, and we may not always agree with their collective decision, but that is how a representational democracy works??? And it also smacks of complete, utter, arrogance, to continue to claim that I am right, and EVERYONE else is wrong, and its a grand conspiracy by EVERYONE else involved.
Let it go. Your elected leaders have spoken.
How have our Reps spoken when a meeting has not been held? Where is the record of their vote?
Where did this "finding" come from? What is the "MEC," without its council members?
O never accused Tim of anything other than not knowing. Haven't accused Kingsley of anything either. This afternoon was the first notice of any action on the matter.
As for "when will it stop," that's easy. Never. Representation is an ongoing fiduciary duty. If you don't like the job, resign and let someone else do it.
----------
On a slightly different topic, no less than the likes of David Behnke lost in a dispute with ALPA staff. Anyone who does not realize the political power of their office does not know ALPA history.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-18-2013 at 06:38 PM.
01-18-2013, 06:38 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
01-18-2013, 06:45 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Two interesting points being made here:
1) The idea that the meet and confer applies specifically to scope discussions, not just a normal TA discussion. Which makes me realize that we've never actually put up the specific language of the meet and confer clause, at least I don't recall seeing it in this discussion.
2) The idea that the MEC has made a determination that there was no issue, even though there has been no MEC meeting. I don't really know how these things work, but it seems to me that the reps can make it determination on this matter via telephone. Is that not correct? Are there not MEC conference calls?
1) The idea that the meet and confer applies specifically to scope discussions, not just a normal TA discussion. Which makes me realize that we've never actually put up the specific language of the meet and confer clause, at least I don't recall seeing it in this discussion.
2) The idea that the MEC has made a determination that there was no issue, even though there has been no MEC meeting. I don't really know how these things work, but it seems to me that the reps can make it determination on this matter via telephone. Is that not correct? Are there not MEC conference calls?
01-18-2013, 06:47 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
DALPA Leaders: Ready (with consultation from ALPA national staff) ... FIRE !
APC Posters: Aren't those guns supposed to be under our command? Then why are they shooting at us instead of in support of our position?
APC Posters: Aren't those guns supposed to be under our command? Then why are they shooting at us instead of in support of our position?
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-18-2013 at 07:04 PM.
01-18-2013, 06:49 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Another point being made here is less convincing: the idea that only one person is obsessed with this topic. Whether you support ALPA or not, I think this is a topic that should be of interest to all of us.
01-18-2013, 06:54 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
And finally, another point that is being swept under the rug: the idea that discussions occurred directly between Delta and another pilot group, without any involvement of, or any notification to, or MEC. What does it say about the nature of the special relationship, that we were not at least given a courtesy call? Am I correct that the MEC members were just as blindsided by this, as line pilots were surprised? Is this normal? Is the engagement off?
I've agreed that there might be a logical explanation for what happened, that the MEC may find that they don't have a problem with what happened, and that I probably would ultimately agree that there is no problem if given some information. What I don't understand is how it is that we were not even notified. That just doesn't make sense.
In fact, I think it's so improbable that Delta would do this for no gain, that I think we must've been involved earlier than is publicly admitted.
I've agreed that there might be a logical explanation for what happened, that the MEC may find that they don't have a problem with what happened, and that I probably would ultimately agree that there is no problem if given some information. What I don't understand is how it is that we were not even notified. That just doesn't make sense.
In fact, I think it's so improbable that Delta would do this for no gain, that I think we must've been involved earlier than is publicly admitted.
01-18-2013, 07:01 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Two interesting points being made here:
1) The idea that the meet and confer applies specifically to scope discussions, not just a normal TA discussion. Which makes me realize that we've never actually put up the specific language of the meet and confer clause, at least I don't recall seeing it in this discussion.
2) The idea that the MEC has made a determination that there was no issue, even though there has been no MEC meeting. I don't really know how these things work, but it seems to me that the reps can make it determination on this matter via telephone. Is that not correct? Are there not MEC conference calls?
1) The idea that the meet and confer applies specifically to scope discussions, not just a normal TA discussion. Which makes me realize that we've never actually put up the specific language of the meet and confer clause, at least I don't recall seeing it in this discussion.
2) The idea that the MEC has made a determination that there was no issue, even though there has been no MEC meeting. I don't really know how these things work, but it seems to me that the reps can make it determination on this matter via telephone. Is that not correct? Are there not MEC conference calls?
Originally Posted by ALPA Admin Manual, Section 40
3. Prior to commencement of any bargaining for any ALPA pilot group within a mainline/express system, the applicable Negotiating Committee will meet with the Negotiating Committees of other ALPA pilot groups in the mainline/express system to review opening scope proposals and how they advance ALPA’s scope goals and guidelines. The committees will work with each other to develop a consensus on proposals; if, however, they are unable to do so, subsection 3a below will apply.
a. Following consultation as specified above, and prior to submission of the scope proposal to the airline, the applicable Negotiating Committee will report to the Scope Subcommittee that ALPA pilot groups have consulted with one another and have or have not reached consensus that the planned scope proposal meets ALPA’s scope goals and guidelines; if the latter, Negotiating Committees of other ALPA pilot groups in the system can submit statements of agreement or disagreement to the Scope Subcommittee, which can recommend changes following consultation with the Negotiating Committees involved.
b. The applicable Negotiating Committee and ALPA pilot groups within the mainline/express system will develop in conjunction with the opening proposal agreed reporting benchmarks with respect to developments in on-going scope negotiations which will require that the Negotiating Committee provide updates on the status of scope negotiations to the Scope Subcommittee. In the absence of consensual agreements concerning benchmarks, the Scope Subcommittee will determine reporting benchmarks.
4. During the period that final approval of a collective bargaining agreement is subject to Presidential review under the Constitution and By-Laws, MEC designated representatives of all ALPA pilot groups within the mainline/express system may submit comments prior to the Presidential signature concerning conformity of negotiated scope provisions with recommendations of the Scope Subcommittee and Association policy.
a. Following consultation as specified above, and prior to submission of the scope proposal to the airline, the applicable Negotiating Committee will report to the Scope Subcommittee that ALPA pilot groups have consulted with one another and have or have not reached consensus that the planned scope proposal meets ALPA’s scope goals and guidelines; if the latter, Negotiating Committees of other ALPA pilot groups in the system can submit statements of agreement or disagreement to the Scope Subcommittee, which can recommend changes following consultation with the Negotiating Committees involved.
b. The applicable Negotiating Committee and ALPA pilot groups within the mainline/express system will develop in conjunction with the opening proposal agreed reporting benchmarks with respect to developments in on-going scope negotiations which will require that the Negotiating Committee provide updates on the status of scope negotiations to the Scope Subcommittee. In the absence of consensual agreements concerning benchmarks, the Scope Subcommittee will determine reporting benchmarks.
4. During the period that final approval of a collective bargaining agreement is subject to Presidential review under the Constitution and By-Laws, MEC designated representatives of all ALPA pilot groups within the mainline/express system may submit comments prior to the Presidential signature concerning conformity of negotiated scope provisions with recommendations of the Scope Subcommittee and Association policy.
Again, ALPA staff says:
- Language in Delta's scope section is not "scope"
- Job protection language in Pinnacle's Bridge Agreement is not "scope" because it isn't under the header "scope."
Again, the purpose of the Admin Manual is to help our union resolve conflicts in house so that we are unified when we come to the table. We can not be unified if the rules are not followed and we are not coordinating.
2) Our MEC can not hold a meeting and a vote via conference call with the exception of ratification of a committee chairman. There are procedures to be followed for the agenda items, debate and voting which our current MEC Policy Manual and Admin Manual do not replicate in a conference call setting. In a nutshell, the Council Members can not direct the MEC via telephone under current guidance.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-18-2013 at 07:16 PM.
01-18-2013, 07:14 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
And finally, another point that is being swept under the rug: the idea that discussions occurred directly between Delta and another pilot group, without any involvement of, or any notification to, or MEC. What does it say about the nature of the special relationship, that we were not at least given a courtesy call? Am I correct that the MEC members were just as blindsided by this, as line pilots were surprised? Is this normal? Is the engagement off?
01-18-2013, 07:28 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Absolutely. So just because ONE guy claims something (on this forum, for example), doesn't mean he's right. But if the entire elected body had stated operations had ceased, I'd probably be more prone to believe them, than if just one man is saying it....over and over and over....
I agree completely. But the smart man will, at some point, look in the mirror and wonder if the whole world is wrong, or perhaps if he is.
I agree completely. But the smart man will, at some point, look in the mirror and wonder if the whole world is wrong, or perhaps if he is.
You probably mean well, but there is something important here that needs to be fixed.
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