Hero68

You hit the nail on the head...I would like to add that Delta management essentially dangled this new carrot for the Pinacle pilots in this 7 year agreement that if you will suck it up and work for peanuts now that the Delta mainline career with a guaranteed interview will more than compensate for you short term loss in pay now! Alpa national thinks they are doing these guys a favor but are essentially eroding their careers.

Bucking Bar

Sailor Jerry,

Your head is in the right place, but Jungle Bus is correct.

ALPA does not advertise the fact it sells pilot jobs and that "credit" is used to cross collateralize mainline pay. The public admissions of this practice are few and far between. The only references I've been able to find in public are:

• Testimony of Delta negotiators to the bankruptcy court where "credits" were exchanged for relaxed scope language. Proposals and counter proposals for outsourcing were exchanged for credits which were used to offset management's concessionary demands. (reference bankruptcy negotiation transcripts)
• The NWA MEC was much more candid in their Zip Line publications where they bragged they were the first to get credits for relaxed scope. (reference ZIPLINE 10-08)
• Lee Moak's roadshow to the LEC meetings explained why outsourcing the 76 seat flying was good for Delta pilots. His contention was that outsourcing makes Delta more profitable and Delta pilots can negotiate higher wages and working conditions if we allow outsourcing. (as far as I know there are no public recordings of these briefings)

Jungle Bus mixes his terms a bit. Outsourced flying is not a "B-Scale." To clarify those definitions:

• B-Scale is when employees who do the identical work, on identical equipment, are paid significantly less as a result of being hired after the preferred group of pilots. B Scale pilots have seniority numbers, representational rights and are accruing longevity.
• A DCI carrier pilot does not enjoy a seniority number, representational rights, or longevity at Delta. Generally, they are operating completely different equipment than the mainline equipment.

If we were to recover some RJ type equipment, it would probably pay much less than our 717 rates. But, it would not be a "B-Scale." Lower pay for less productive equipment is always the way we have done things and every one understands why a 747 / 777 pays more than a 717.

JungleBus

You're right. You guys are 100% deserving of your payrates and more based on nothing other than the excellent, safe service you provide to the company and its customers. I personally don't think that ultra-cheap regional feed, and all that implies, is necessary to pay DAL pilots industry-leading wages.

But what I think doesn't really matter - it's what people like Richard Anderson & Ed Bastian think. And they've been pretty forthright in stating that the reason they can justify paying DAL pilots what they do is the value DALPA has provided the company with flexibility on outsourcing - top and bottom end (as well as productivity enhancements). Lee Moak argued the same thing privately and publicly, and he's now our union's president. He's gone so far as to publicly mock unions that did not provide this same amount of flexibility (ie pre-BK APA).

PinnacleFO

Selfishly but with some purpose I wish the purchase of pinnacle by delta triggered some sort of clause to staple pinnacle to delta to capture mainline flying. Selfishly I say it because i want to work there but purposely i say it in the name of safety. Delta training, Delta Standards, Delta philosophy. Not Pinnacle Training, Go Jet Standards, and Express Jet morals. This contract at pinnacle for the next 7 years ensures that all other regionals will have to endure a chapter 11 scenario to match pinnacle. To me that lowers safety and if a rj goes down, delta as a whole suffers. There is no reason in my mind that you should have to outsource an airplane that carries 76-90 people across the country.

I know why you guys would not want this scenario because you were all hired at Delta and you deserve the jobs you have and the money you make. I don't blame you one bit. Over the course of history there are times when things change, is this one of them?
Those of us at pinnacle have to make difficult choices now becuase its no longer, I'm single no kids living in an apartment. You can't just up and leave anymore. Waiting 4-5 years for a interview that can be cancelled at any time is no good plan either. My apps are out everywhere, but I really hope I end up at Delta in the future.

sailingfun

The 77 you started with were probably out of a pool of a thousand applicants. I have been on both sides of the coin. The military produces a fairly consistent end product which is why airlines have liked military pilots. A few always manage to slip through that are not so good. The civilian world can produce a pilot every bit as good as the military pilot however the standard deviation is much larger. The military program also allows pilots to experience many things in flying that as civilian pilot only hears about in conceptual form.
One thing lost in the discussion is that Delta has always placed a lot of emphasis on leadership positions held and education. This gives military pilots a large advantage in the interview process. They generally have had years of leadership training, management experience and above average performance in college. Most well above average with technical degrees. I once asked a interviewer at Delta why the high percentage of military pilots hired and he replied it was not the military training but the overall applicant. He said they typically had much better backgrounds outside flying and in the actual interview process they were far more polished. He said civilians who matched up in background and interview skills were just as likely to get hired.

Express pilot

Do you think there will be displacements off ATL88B to cover the 717?

Timbo

If not enough guys bid it voluntarily, they will have to get the bodies from displacements, since we are not hiring to fill those seats. Might be the most junior MD88 guys, or perhaps there will be an equal number of DC9 displacements, to fill the 717 right seats, but if there aren't, well...somebody's got to do it.

I think anyone very junior, in a category 'out of seniority' so to speak, is at risk, as those ATL 767 Domestic displacements will cause a waterfall event, rippling through the entire list, both above and below them. There are some very senior guys still on the 767 who can go where ever they want...but that's going to cause more displacements on down the line.

For instance, I have a new hire class mate who is a few numbers senior to me (at 350 ish) who is still on the ATL 767 Domestic. He could displace into the 777 Capt. seat, which would cause the bottom 777 A to be pushed out, say to the 767-400, which will cause that bottom guy to be pushed out, and on down the line, it rolls downhill, and comes to rest at the DC9 or 717.

APCLurker

With regards to the bolded part of the quote, that is also in the nwalpa pub "Across the Table" Issue #16. Looking at it in front of me as I type.

After a quick glance, it appears nwalpa was given $19 Million per year in "credit" for the value of scope changes to go towards the desired management cost savings.

alfaromeo

I have no ALPA position although I have done work in the past. Delta management negotiates with numerous other entities about issues that don't affect my contract. We have a clause in our contract that requires our DCI carriers to provide the same type of preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots. In essence we are negotiating through a proxy with the DCI carriers management teams to ensure preferential hiring. I heard little uproar about that.

There is nothing to see here in my opinion. Delta management is the sole determinant of who they hire. Our contract requires them to make efforts to review/flow pilots from ALPA carriers but other than the limited flow arrangements (that were in place in the NWA contract prior to the merger) Delta still has 100% control over who gets to be a Delta pilot. If they decided that this agreement was in their best interest then they have that right to make this agreement as long as they honor their contractual obligations to us. There is no one that has suggested that this bridge agreement violates our contract in any way.

ALPA is an association of unions that provide mutual support to try to improve the lives of the pilots they represent. In this case, the Pinnacle pilots faced a terrible choice of cutting their flying by over 50% while also cutting their salaries or have the company liquidated. There was no other plan than that. Delta management decided this deal was in their interest and that they would finance this deal; in exchange they would give Pinnacle pilots a leg up in the interview process to try to alleviate by some small amount the enormous pain that this deal encompassed. As a union member and a human being I have no problem with them trying to alleviate this pain. We have never controlled who Delta decides to interview (other than a few exceptions which they comply with) and so they are not affecting me.

I guess my question to you is that if you had complete control of the union and if you were there in the room, would you have squashed this deal? Could you look at all those Pinnacle pilots and tell them all to suck it because you had somehow decided they were unworthy of an interview at Delta? Could you then come back and explain to me why my life and career were bettered by these pilots' suffering?

I don't get any of this sturm and drang over this issue. As I said before this mostly seems like score settling of past grievances between RJ pilot groups. I find it hard to tell some guy he is going to lose his house and not be able to take care of his family because of some perceived slight from 10 years ago. Maybe I am just getting soft in my old age.

georgetg

ALFA,

You make some salient points. I completely agree to not let past disagreements get in the way of future progress. I also agree that one of the fundamental tenets of a union is to extend a hand to those less fortunate and to look after one another.

I can only speak for myself, but for me the "issue at hand" is not having a Delta MEC representative in the room and involved in these negotiations that culminated in the agreements beween Pinnacle and Delta management.

As a Delta pilot on the bottom of the list, I'd like any new flow-up agreement with DCI carriers up to provide the same flow-down provisions our PWA has established for the other ALPA DCI carriers that have flow.

I also think there is a dangerous precedent when the Delta MEC didn't get to establish a framework for negotiations before Delta management sat down with another pilot group.

This is not unlike the trilateral agreement between the transatlantic JV partners that sets up a framework that clearly defines boundaries for negotiations, (I might add a new agreement of this sort now including Alitalia was just signed early this year...)

I wish only the best for the Pinnacle pilots and look forward to seeing some new faces on property.

I don't think my concerns are outlandish or rash. As a Delta pilot, I'd just like the people I elected to represent my interests included in these types of negotiations...

You might have a different view.

Cheers
George