Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-15-2013, 07:08 PM
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Posts: 13,088
01-15-2013, 07:12 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,014
Two things I'd point out:
FIRST: Lots of military guys do have angst.
Their angst started when Delta began hiring large numbers of civilian pilots (like you). They got upset. Then they realized they don't make Delta's hiring decisions. Breathe in. Breathe out. Then they got over it. And low and behold, civilian guys really can fly. Who'd have guessed?
So don't talk down to military guys about not understanding your complex emotions.
SECOND: Are you still spinning off into outerspace because of the "Bridge Agreement" or the "Vault Letter"? Because, only one of those things is confirmed to exist. The other sounds pretty fishy to me, and I expect it is fiction.
Don't let people push your buttons. Someone is feeding you questionable "information" designed to make your head explode all over your keyboard. My advice is if they're so upset, tell them to act like a man and handle this themselves. Then, you are badly in need of a healthy dose of SportsCenter.
FIRST: Lots of military guys do have angst.
Their angst started when Delta began hiring large numbers of civilian pilots (like you). They got upset. Then they realized they don't make Delta's hiring decisions. Breathe in. Breathe out. Then they got over it. And low and behold, civilian guys really can fly. Who'd have guessed?
So don't talk down to military guys about not understanding your complex emotions.
SECOND: Are you still spinning off into outerspace because of the "Bridge Agreement" or the "Vault Letter"? Because, only one of those things is confirmed to exist. The other sounds pretty fishy to me, and I expect it is fiction.
Don't let people push your buttons. Someone is feeding you questionable "information" designed to make your head explode all over your keyboard. My advice is if they're so upset, tell them to act like a man and handle this themselves. Then, you are badly in need of a healthy dose of SportsCenter.
We need a primary level program to educate Status Reps on the basics of grass roots representation. How the representational structure of ALPA works and how attorneys work to represent their clients.
I've heard we have one Rep who came on to a web board and made false allegations designed to demean the character of one of the pilots he is responsible for protecting. If true, I'd say that guy does not really understand what "representation" means.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-15-2013 at 07:37 PM.
01-15-2013, 07:16 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: A big one that looks like a little one
Posts: 633
Over what period of time? Ten years? If you did a sarcastical breakout of number of Asa pilots interviewed over the 2007-2010 range over their pilot group or percentage hired of those interviewed the numbers would be well above that.
What surprises me is this pinnacle deal has been out since December 21-22 and now that it has passed everyone seems shocked and concerned. The TA has passed and is now contractual. The bridge agreement is in full force as soon as it is signed by all parties. Should the concerned not been raised by the line pilot before this point in time?
What recourse do you recommend now? Do you want to put your hands in delta hiring practices and make them contractual? Serious questions that need to be asked of the group and then directed to the reps via resolution before the February MEC meeting.
There's nothing sarcastical about my concern over this issue.
My point is, is that if they expended negotiating capital on the Bridge Agreement, and it proves to be of little value, they're gonna be angry and may seek grievance based action against Delta.
01-15-2013, 07:17 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,014
Failing that, resolutions have been put forward. I've got at least one going forward next month.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-15-2013 at 07:33 PM.
01-15-2013, 07:20 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 69
I can't prove a negative so I don't waste time trying. Bring me evidence to the affirmative. Until I see evidence to the contrary, unicorns do not exist.
Interesting choice of words. "Black helicopters" usually describes the object of ones' paranoid obsessions, doesn't it?
The thing is, there are new reps coming along all the time. What makes this time special? No offense to anyone, but I don't see Perry Mason or Sherlock Holmes amongst the incoming cadre. I see people that cared enough to get involved and put their name out there and got the votes to get elected. Hats off to them. But is the union going to be a drastically different entity for the bankruptcy courts to deal with once a couple reps change over? I doubt it. So why would they bother jumping through hoops to manipulate a timeline. More likely the timeline is dictated by Delta needing to know who is going to be providing domestic feed to their hubs during this coming spring/summer travel season. If PCL was not going to survive, DAL probably needed to know soon.
That's all I was trying to say. Not "impossible"...just much more likely to be the coincidental timing.
"Occam's Razor".
The thing is, there are new reps coming along all the time. What makes this time special? No offense to anyone, but I don't see Perry Mason or Sherlock Holmes amongst the incoming cadre. I see people that cared enough to get involved and put their name out there and got the votes to get elected. Hats off to them. But is the union going to be a drastically different entity for the bankruptcy courts to deal with once a couple reps change over? I doubt it. So why would they bother jumping through hoops to manipulate a timeline. More likely the timeline is dictated by Delta needing to know who is going to be providing domestic feed to their hubs during this coming spring/summer travel season. If PCL was not going to survive, DAL probably needed to know soon.
"Occam's Razor".
01-15-2013, 07:24 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
I smell burning lithium and an emergency AD...
JALs grounded now too.
So... Will UA follow suit?
This puts a lot of pressure on Boeing, might this be a good opportunity to snag some 777's or 748's for crazy Eddie prices? ---just dreaming of course
JALs grounded now too.
So... Will UA follow suit?
This puts a lot of pressure on Boeing, might this be a good opportunity to snag some 777's or 748's for crazy Eddie prices? ---just dreaming of course
01-15-2013, 07:25 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 69
Thus far, web board sources have been much more accurate sources of objective information than status reps who were locked out of the room while another pilot group came in and did a deal with Delta management.
We need a primary level program to educate Status Reps on the basics of grass roots representation. How the representational structure of ALPA works and how attorneys work to represent their clients.
I've heard we have one Rep who came on to a web board and made false allegations designed to demean the character of one of the pilots he is responsible for protecting. If true, I'd say that guy does not really understand what "representation" means.
We need a primary level program to educate Status Reps on the basics of grass roots representation. How the representational structure of ALPA works and how attorneys work to represent their clients.
I've heard we have one Rep who came on to a web board and made false allegations designed to demean the character of one of the pilots he is responsible for protecting. If true, I'd say that guy does not really understand what "representation" means.
01-15-2013, 07:30 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
First off I've swapped a handful of emails with my rep on this issue. It wasn't put on an agenda until later this month, and at the MEC meeting next month. Recourse? We can grieve it. It was the MEC admin's decision to delay interest in it. I think a resolution should be passed that its the MEC's suggestion that no preference be given to the PNCL candidates during the interview. We don't have to have a hand in it, but we're certainly entitled to an opinion, aren't we?
Pass a resolution that directs the MEC to direct the negotiating committee to negotiate with delta to violate a agreement they just signed? Probability of that happening and getting delta to agree to it? Zero
There's nothing sarcastical about my concern over this issue.
My point is, is that if they expended negotiating capital on the Bridge Agreement, and it proves to be of little value, they're gonna be angry and may seek grievance based action against Delta.
Pass a resolution that directs the MEC to direct the negotiating committee to negotiate with delta to violate a agreement they just signed? Probability of that happening and getting delta to agree to it? Zero
There's nothing sarcastical about my concern over this issue.
My point is, is that if they expended negotiating capital on the Bridge Agreement, and it proves to be of little value, they're gonna be angry and may seek grievance based action against Delta.
Last edited by johnso29; 01-16-2013 at 05:39 AM.
01-15-2013, 07:34 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 69
Your recall is incorrect.
I understood the issues in the RJDC problem, just as I understand the issues in Delta's current representational problem. Litigation against our union has never been the answer.
The Ford, Cooksey litigation obtained class status (if I am not mistaken). Unless members of the class opted out, then they were included in the class. Some pilots asked to be removed. I was among those removed. All this is recorded in the documents relating to the lawsuit.
I understood the issues in the RJDC problem, just as I understand the issues in Delta's current representational problem. Litigation against our union has never been the answer.
The Ford, Cooksey litigation obtained class status (if I am not mistaken). Unless members of the class opted out, then they were included in the class. Some pilots asked to be removed. I was among those removed. All this is recorded in the documents relating to the lawsuit.
So, do I understand that you DID support their position but did NOT support taking it to court?
I wasn't aware of the subtlety.
And if you opted out of the class, does it follow you did not send them money?
I'm just trying to understand where you were at on that issue because if you agreed with the premise of Ford & Cooksey's complaint then it seems your perspective is different now.
01-15-2013, 07:36 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
The military guys probably do not get the angst the civilians are feeling about the affirmative action program for entitled Pinnacle pilots. For the guys who served, sent their resumes to five airlines and went with the first who hired them, let me ' splain.
Most of the civilian pilots paid a huge amount of money to obtain a college degree and obtain the number of hours to make them competitive in the job market. Avoiding college would have meant getting to Delta perhaps five, or six, years earlier (if Delta were hiring). Throw in the post 9/11 interruption, the result of going to college was getting hired in 2009 instead of 1999.
Getting to Delta was a 20 year path for my friends. Some friends are still completing the requirements. To have those requirements suddenly change because some f-NWA manager sees an opening to cut regional pay a little is no small let down for those who have put in their time in the school house and delayed their flying career to do so.
Most of the civilian pilots paid a huge amount of money to obtain a college degree and obtain the number of hours to make them competitive in the job market. Avoiding college would have meant getting to Delta perhaps five, or six, years earlier (if Delta were hiring). Throw in the post 9/11 interruption, the result of going to college was getting hired in 2009 instead of 1999.
Getting to Delta was a 20 year path for my friends. Some friends are still completing the requirements. To have those requirements suddenly change because some f-NWA manager sees an opening to cut regional pay a little is no small let down for those who have put in their time in the school house and delayed their flying career to do so.
The way I read the bridge agreement, the max number of Pinnacle pilots that Delta is required to hire is 144 for 2013-2016 (it can go down if hiring is low). 144. Per year. Gack, there goes the neighborhood, hide the women and children.
As for angst, picture yourself leading a night four ship to a tanker and your ejection seat catches on fire at the same time the roll stab aug and yaw stab aug have catastrophic failures leading to random full scale deflection of flight controls. Like so hard your clear visor gets cracked on the canopy followed by your noggin. There is some major league angst my friend.
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