Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-25-2012, 05:51 AM
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Oh heck no sailingfun. I'm for the most part satisfied with what DALPA has done. Looking at the UAL/CAL TA makes me appreciate our contract even more. I'm incredibly disappointed in the UAL/CAL TA. It looks terrible.
11-25-2012, 05:54 AM
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I've been reading their merger/TA threads, and can't really determine if this is such a turd. A lot of things make you cringe, but some are a little better. If you read their CAL Pro thread, one thing stands out: CAL had a TERRIBLE contract, but average Scope. I think UA had atrocious pay and poor scope. They had a lot of cleaning up to do, i.e. starting from post-BK, without SOT-like improvements, and without a JCBA right at the merger, so they cleaned up a lot, and are playing catch up. Looks like this catching up is concentrated in payrates.
Smiseck and company are being trained just like Doug Parker was...that while it's not optimum, low labor costs are a big "synergy". If this agreement doesn't pass, Jan 1 a DAL M88 Captain will make more per hour more than a UAL 744A. A DAL 757A will make about $50 more per hour than a UAL 757A. A DAL 738A will make about $35 more per hour than a CAL 738A. A DAL A320A will make about $60 more per hour than a UAL A320A. Yeah, it's that different.
That buys a lot of "synergy". It will be interesting to see the plan B's from both UCAL MEC's and UCAL management if it goes down.
11-25-2012, 05:54 AM
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Johnson,
How about the 16% retirement vs our 14% raising to 15%? Also I think they have a 5+00 daily minimum. Not as good as our 5+15 DPA (if we have a duty period every day of our trip) but better than our 4+30 daily minimum. Plus I heard the pay will surpass ours in the last two years of their contract.
So its probably not gem, but maybe not a really big turd either. I think the biggest hose job is the UAL guys not getting full longevity - but I don't really understand when they say the longevity will be increased.
Scoop
How about the 16% retirement vs our 14% raising to 15%? Also I think they have a 5+00 daily minimum. Not as good as our 5+15 DPA (if we have a duty period every day of our trip) but better than our 4+30 daily minimum. Plus I heard the pay will surpass ours in the last two years of their contract.
So its probably not gem, but maybe not a really big turd either. I think the biggest hose job is the UAL guys not getting full longevity - but I don't really understand when they say the longevity will be increased.
Scoop
The pay is not great IMO. The other things you mentioned are good, but I don't think they out weigh the crappy work rules. And the UAL furloughs not getting full longevity restoration is a slap in the face!
11-25-2012, 05:56 AM
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AA tailgunner with 357 last night at ORD, charged with felony.
11-25-2012, 06:01 AM
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11-25-2012, 06:04 AM
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I've been reading their merger/TA threads, and can't really determine if this is such a turd. A lot of things make you cringe, but some are a little better. If you read their CAL Pro thread, one thing stands out: CAL had a TERRIBLE contract, but average Scope. I think UA had atrocious pay and poor scope. They had a lot of cleaning up to do, i.e. starting from post-BK, without SOT-like improvements, and without a JCBA right at the merger, so they cleaned up a lot, and are playing catch up. Looks like this catching up is concentrated in payrates.
11-25-2012, 06:10 AM
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So if you believe Smisek to be OK with it, what would you do next?
11-25-2012, 06:15 AM
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I have no idea. And that's why I'm just a line grunt! 
My question is if he is ok with the low wage created synergies, is he also ok with the scrabbled scope? We all know he wants the large RJs with a 2 class configuration(3 if you include economy comfort). So is he willing to sweeten the pot if they shoot this thing down?
I don't think UAL/CAL pilots are on the same page relationship wise with their management team as we are. They seem to always be expecting to pull a knife out of their back.
My question is if he is ok with the low wage created synergies, is he also ok with the scrabbled scope? We all know he wants the large RJs with a 2 class configuration(3 if you include economy comfort). So is he willing to sweeten the pot if they shoot this thing down?
I don't think UAL/CAL pilots are on the same page relationship wise with their management team as we are. They seem to always be expecting to pull a knife out of their back.
11-25-2012, 06:19 AM
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I agree and think ALPA should absolutely have been consulted before this mandate. I really hope they go to bat for us on this. Next we will be required to post ourselves two hours before each trip next to the departures board to help point people to their gates. Following each trip, the pilots will need to stay onboard and help with cleanup and catering as required.
I'm saddened even more that management thinks they can or even feel the need to legislate the spirit of going the extra mile. It's not something you can put in an All Pilots Letter! It's the environment and work ethic produced when you compensate your employees appropriately and treat them as true stakeholders in the company. This, as opposed to a red number on the financial report, to be minimized, marginalized, and even lied to when necessary to make a quick buck. (For examples, see the LGA slot swap RJ surprise, happily giving our West coast flying to pilots from another airline, and the overtures of hiring to get us to sign the TA).
Not to promote a competitor, but I think SWA has this figured out. The people they hire (pilots, FA's, gate agents, etc) come from the same pool as the legacies. But anyone who flies them regularly and has close friends there would probably not dispute that something is a little bit different. Surely this is not due to the right combination of All Pilot Letters and All FA Letters forcing all employees into a customer service mold. Rather, I think they treat their employees as assets rather than liabilities, and that is reflected in the way their frontline employees interact with customers. They aren't patted on the head like good puppies, told with words they are the most important part of the operation while most management actions say precisely the opposite.
I'm saddened even more that management thinks they can or even feel the need to legislate the spirit of going the extra mile. It's not something you can put in an All Pilots Letter! It's the environment and work ethic produced when you compensate your employees appropriately and treat them as true stakeholders in the company. This, as opposed to a red number on the financial report, to be minimized, marginalized, and even lied to when necessary to make a quick buck. (For examples, see the LGA slot swap RJ surprise, happily giving our West coast flying to pilots from another airline, and the overtures of hiring to get us to sign the TA).
Not to promote a competitor, but I think SWA has this figured out. The people they hire (pilots, FA's, gate agents, etc) come from the same pool as the legacies. But anyone who flies them regularly and has close friends there would probably not dispute that something is a little bit different. Surely this is not due to the right combination of All Pilot Letters and All FA Letters forcing all employees into a customer service mold. Rather, I think they treat their employees as assets rather than liabilities, and that is reflected in the way their frontline employees interact with customers. They aren't patted on the head like good puppies, told with words they are the most important part of the operation while most management actions say precisely the opposite.
Second, they have a very standardized boarding system which enables their gate agents to multitask , I don't know if we could actually do boarding the way they do...we've tried it in the past and it hasn't worked well.
Third, with the way the AirTran merger has gone, I don't want to walk a mile in their shoes.
Four, progression is at a standstill unless you were hired off the street by swa in 2004ish or earlier...progression, hmmm, you are either a fo or a capt flying like a regional...not bad if that's what you like.
Five, they on average still make more than we do. I still like flying with my dal bros and doing the dal job. Of course I want to make more money, but I am hopeful for better everything at dal.
Six, we will hire. We will move up. We will see it come together within a year.
Seven, our mgmt team kicked their mgmt teams butt in the 717 negotiation.
Eight, Clemson should have won against carolina.
Nine, we work for arguably the best pax airline to work for and probably the most desirable one to be hired at going forward.
11-25-2012, 06:23 AM
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Just a personal observation on swa from jumpseating and riding on them...First, they treat all airline employees better than their pax every time. For good or bad, that has been my experience.
Second, they have a very standardized boarding system which enables their gate agents to multitask , I don't know if we could actually do boarding the way they do...we've tried it in the past and it hasn't worked well.
Third, with the way the AirTran merger has gone, I don't want to walk a mile in their shoes.
Four, progression is at a standstill unless you were hired off the street by swa in 2004ish or earlier...progression, hmmm, you are either a fo or a capt flying like a regional...not bad if that's what you like.
Five, they on average still make more than we do. I still like flying with my dal bros and doing the dal job. Of course I want to make more money, but I am hopeful for better everything at dal.
Six, we will hire. We will move up. We will see it come together within a year.
Seven, our mgmt team kicked their mgmt teams butt in the 717 negotiation.
Eight, Clemson should have won against carolina.
Nine, we work for arguably the best pax airline to work for and probably the most desirable one to be hired at going forward.
Second, they have a very standardized boarding system which enables their gate agents to multitask , I don't know if we could actually do boarding the way they do...we've tried it in the past and it hasn't worked well.
Third, with the way the AirTran merger has gone, I don't want to walk a mile in their shoes.
Four, progression is at a standstill unless you were hired off the street by swa in 2004ish or earlier...progression, hmmm, you are either a fo or a capt flying like a regional...not bad if that's what you like.
Five, they on average still make more than we do. I still like flying with my dal bros and doing the dal job. Of course I want to make more money, but I am hopeful for better everything at dal.
Six, we will hire. We will move up. We will see it come together within a year.
Seven, our mgmt team kicked their mgmt teams butt in the 717 negotiation.
Eight, Clemson should have won against carolina.
Nine, we work for arguably the best pax airline to work for and probably the most desirable one to be hired at going forward.
I agree scambo. Well said.
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