Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-13-2012, 07:52 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Your post is one of the more ignorant I have seen on here. Reserve is first off not just a junior issue. Pilots with 3 digit seniority numbers sit reserve. Reserve is spread throughout the list. Reserve is also the most improved section of the contract in the last 25 years. No other section even comes close in terms of quality of life changes.
Dalpa has over the years done things never considered by other unions for junior pilots. They were the first to cover medical for furloughed pilots.
They were the first to get furloughed time counted for years of service for pay steps and retirement.
When the retirement plan was frozen the company wanted to replace it with a flat 9 percent DC plan to each pilot. Dalpa changed that to a targeted plan to provide substantially more money to the junior pilots and often 0 percent to the senior guys.
When the retirement plan was terminated they went to a flat DC plan rather then try and balance it back with another targeted plan.
The note money which was distributed to offset the retirement lost in the termination would have gone almost totally to the senior pilots if distributed on a straight percentage basis using the lost retirement of each pilot. DALPA felt that would send to much to the top 50 percent of the pilots so they changed every pilots FAE to 205,000 per year in the calculations to move money more down the list. That still left most going to the top half so they added a years of service minimum distribution.
They modified greenslips to include seniority only in the first one awarded a change from all awards to 2 awards and now 1.
The pay structure has been changed and new hire pilots have received far greater overall raises then any other portion of the list. No more 1500/ 1800 dollars a month flat rate pay ect..
Since the 1113 contract some of the single most expensive improvements such as elimination of recovery flying for training trip drops and increases in furlough protection were negotiated for the junior pilots.
I could go on and on but am tired of typing.
Dalpa has over the years done things never considered by other unions for junior pilots. They were the first to cover medical for furloughed pilots.
They were the first to get furloughed time counted for years of service for pay steps and retirement.
When the retirement plan was frozen the company wanted to replace it with a flat 9 percent DC plan to each pilot. Dalpa changed that to a targeted plan to provide substantially more money to the junior pilots and often 0 percent to the senior guys.
When the retirement plan was terminated they went to a flat DC plan rather then try and balance it back with another targeted plan.
The note money which was distributed to offset the retirement lost in the termination would have gone almost totally to the senior pilots if distributed on a straight percentage basis using the lost retirement of each pilot. DALPA felt that would send to much to the top 50 percent of the pilots so they changed every pilots FAE to 205,000 per year in the calculations to move money more down the list. That still left most going to the top half so they added a years of service minimum distribution.
They modified greenslips to include seniority only in the first one awarded a change from all awards to 2 awards and now 1.
The pay structure has been changed and new hire pilots have received far greater overall raises then any other portion of the list. No more 1500/ 1800 dollars a month flat rate pay ect..
Since the 1113 contract some of the single most expensive improvements such as elimination of recovery flying for training trip drops and increases in furlough protection were negotiated for the junior pilots.
I could go on and on but am tired of typing.
You're taking a couple of liberties with your represenattion of the Note, which ended up being grossly skewed towards senior pilot and being billed as an offset for "retirement-related concessions" AFTER a settlement with the PBGC, and AFTER selling the claim and note as a consideration for concession (not retirement concessions) when we voted on LOA 51. Also, COBRA was nice, but the active pilots did vote to do away with the furloughees recall schedule in LOA 46, and many did gorge from the trough of greenslips while others had no job. The COBRA is merely a spoonfull of sugar. Appreciated, but no substitute for a job.
Aside from the above caveats, I agree completely with the general point you are making: we are far, far more balanced in our approach to junior pilots than I've ever seen, at any group, and the areas that favor senior pilots are fair, IMO.
You have to make a distinction between the areas you're adressing: items that are distributed in seniority order according to the contract, and off-the-cuff/one-off distributions.
Where we sometimes get in trouble is when we distribute a one-time gain, or something not covered. Even there, while the Note might have been questionable, the Claim was an model of even-handedness.
In the case of Reserve assignments, we are correcting the grossly concessionary LOA's that were purely productivity-driven, and favor NO pilot (everyone was punished by the arbitrary nature of the system). Now we're saying that, of two pilots, the senior gets better choice. This gets us back closer to the old Reserve system, which by all accounts was great. And yet we still have some FIFO component, in the bucket method. Now, some say it's not good enough, and we have make sure that people that can't hold week-ends off, have to be treated the same as people who can. We might as well not allow the more senior pilots on a given category to have week-ends off. In what world is that fair, or necessary?
The bottom line is that seniority is not a digital, but an analog concept. It makes for a graduated scale for Reserve pilots, and helps order assignments. Below a certain point, for pilots that are consistenly on week-ends, you're working against a normal pattern, since linholders don't pick up on week-ends. If you need to downbid to avoid this predicament, do so. If you have nowhere to downbid to, you're among the last to be hired. Someone has to be the last, for some period of time. Asking for people that are higher on this graduated scale for the temporary relief of those that are at the bottom yields a system where no pilot can win long-term.
11-13-2012, 07:56 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 121
I'll weigh in since I am extremely junior in my category (the plug to one from the bottom).
I don't mind the new system and I DO NOT under any circumstances want them to beef up staffing on the weekend to try to get me to work less on my weekends on call. How could this be positive for the group as a whole? The only people that would benefit would be the most senior people that are forced to work the weekends. Those would be the same folks that are currently able to get weekends off that would now be shuffling to weekends on under your plan. Everyone else still flies and sits short call.
The only thing that I would change about the reserve system right now (other than the obvious of wanting more time off) is to change how the short calls are assigned as they relate to the buckets. It has been stated many times, but, for the junior folks that have to fly several trips because they are first to go and don't get to knock out short calls, they end up working a lot and THEN still having to serve their short calls because they are in the first short call bucket.
Again, I can live with the new system because it is better than what we had and I just look forward to being senior on reserve - because that has its perks (as it should).
I don't mind the new system and I DO NOT under any circumstances want them to beef up staffing on the weekend to try to get me to work less on my weekends on call. How could this be positive for the group as a whole? The only people that would benefit would be the most senior people that are forced to work the weekends. Those would be the same folks that are currently able to get weekends off that would now be shuffling to weekends on under your plan. Everyone else still flies and sits short call.
The only thing that I would change about the reserve system right now (other than the obvious of wanting more time off) is to change how the short calls are assigned as they relate to the buckets. It has been stated many times, but, for the junior folks that have to fly several trips because they are first to go and don't get to knock out short calls, they end up working a lot and THEN still having to serve their short calls because they are in the first short call bucket.
Again, I can live with the new system because it is better than what we had and I just look forward to being senior on reserve - because that has its perks (as it should).
Now as my category normalizes my sentiments may change but I think there is a lot to be said for the transparency of the reserve sysytem the way it is and it is as fair as can be expected without totally killing the junior guys at the expense of senior ones.
I
11-13-2012, 08:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,174
A very good post overall, WRT ALPA's seniority bias. Since 2000, our union has taken a number of steps to ensure a more equitable distribution of assets throughout the list.
You're taking a couple of liberties with your represenattion of the Note, which ended up being grossly skewed towards senior pilot and being billed as an offset for "retirement-related concessions" AFTER a settlement with the PBGC, and AFTER selling the claim and note as a consideration for concession (not retirement concessions) when we voted on LOA 51. Also, COBRA was nice, but the active pilots did vote to do away with the furloughees recall schedule in LOA 46, and many did gorge from the trough of greenslips while others had no job. The COBRA is merely a spoonfull of sugar. Appreciated, but no substitute for a job.
Aside from the above caveats, I agree completely with the general point you are making: we are far, far more balanced in our approach to junior pilots than I've ever seen, at any group, and the areas that favor senior pilots are fair, IMO.
You have to make a distinction between the areas you're adressing: items that are distributed in seniority order according to the contract, and off-the-cuff/one-off distributions.
Where we sometimes get in trouble is when we distribute a one-time gain, or something not covered. Even there, while the Note might have been questionable, the Claim was an model of even-handedness.
In the case of Reserve assignments, we are correcting the grossly concessionary LOA's that were purely productivity-driven, and favor NO pilot (everyone was punished by the arbitrary nature of the system). Now we're saying that, of two pilots, the senior gets better choice. This gets us back closer to the old Reserve system, which by all accounts was great. And yet we still have some FIFO component, in the bucket method. Now, some say it's not good enough, and we have make sure that people that can't hold week-ends off, have to be treated the same as people who can. We might as well not allow the more senior pilots on a given category to have week-ends off. In what world is that fair, or necessary?
The bottom line is that seniority is not a digital, but an analog concept. It makes for a graduated scale for Reserve pilots, and helps order assignments. Below a certain point, for pilots that are consistenly on week-ends, you're working against a normal pattern, since linholders don't pick up on week-ends. If you need to downbid to avoid this predicament, do so. If you have nowhere to downbid to, you're among the last to be hired. Someone has to be the last, for some period of time. Asking for people that are higher on this graduated scale for the temporary relief of those that are at the bottom yields a system where no pilot can win long-term.
You're taking a couple of liberties with your represenattion of the Note, which ended up being grossly skewed towards senior pilot and being billed as an offset for "retirement-related concessions" AFTER a settlement with the PBGC, and AFTER selling the claim and note as a consideration for concession (not retirement concessions) when we voted on LOA 51. Also, COBRA was nice, but the active pilots did vote to do away with the furloughees recall schedule in LOA 46, and many did gorge from the trough of greenslips while others had no job. The COBRA is merely a spoonfull of sugar. Appreciated, but no substitute for a job.
Aside from the above caveats, I agree completely with the general point you are making: we are far, far more balanced in our approach to junior pilots than I've ever seen, at any group, and the areas that favor senior pilots are fair, IMO.
You have to make a distinction between the areas you're adressing: items that are distributed in seniority order according to the contract, and off-the-cuff/one-off distributions.
Where we sometimes get in trouble is when we distribute a one-time gain, or something not covered. Even there, while the Note might have been questionable, the Claim was an model of even-handedness.
In the case of Reserve assignments, we are correcting the grossly concessionary LOA's that were purely productivity-driven, and favor NO pilot (everyone was punished by the arbitrary nature of the system). Now we're saying that, of two pilots, the senior gets better choice. This gets us back closer to the old Reserve system, which by all accounts was great. And yet we still have some FIFO component, in the bucket method. Now, some say it's not good enough, and we have make sure that people that can't hold week-ends off, have to be treated the same as people who can. We might as well not allow the more senior pilots on a given category to have week-ends off. In what world is that fair, or necessary?
The bottom line is that seniority is not a digital, but an analog concept. It makes for a graduated scale for Reserve pilots, and helps order assignments. Below a certain point, for pilots that are consistenly on week-ends, you're working against a normal pattern, since linholders don't pick up on week-ends. If you need to downbid to avoid this predicament, do so. If you have nowhere to downbid to, you're among the last to be hired. Someone has to be the last, for some period of time. Asking for people that are higher on this graduated scale for the temporary relief of those that are at the bottom yields a system where no pilot can win long-term.
To summarize: senior (weekends off), in base reserve is WAY better than a few bucks an hour extra, IMO. The best part about bringing seniority back to rsv is it gets more senior guys to bid down allowing some opportunities (like being REG for a commuter) that wouldn't otherwise exist. I hesitate to draw a parallel to "trickle down economics" but it's something close to that.
11-13-2012, 08:17 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: C560XL/XLS/XLS+
Posts: 1,278
Before I call scheduling and make a fool of myself again, let me ask APC.....
So, there is a rule that says they don't do swaps at the end of the month while a PBS bid is being processed?
I put in for a swap the Saturday after Thanksgiving, it didn't go through, and the denial reason was PBS run in process.
Does that sound right?
So, there is a rule that says they don't do swaps at the end of the month while a PBS bid is being processed?
I put in for a swap the Saturday after Thanksgiving, it didn't go through, and the denial reason was PBS run in process.
Does that sound right?
11-13-2012, 08:21 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
I couldn't wait. I called and you are right. While PBS is running, no swaps that go into the last 6 days of the month.
Thanks!
BTW, your December schedule is out, via the backdoor.
11-13-2012, 08:28 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
11-13-2012, 08:29 AM
Doing Nothing
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,316
I love how I've flown more than anyone in my category, and because of that I haven't sat a short call yet. So, I'm in Raw group 2.. the only one, but yet I get short call tomorrow. So, I'm first up to go even though everyone else has flown less and is in another bucket.
We've got to put short call assignments in with the raw groups. Unbelievable.
We've got to put short call assignments in with the raw groups. Unbelievable.
11-13-2012, 08:31 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Your post is one of the more ignorant I have seen on here. Reserve is first off not just a junior issue. Pilots with 3 digit seniority numbers sit reserve. Reserve is spread throughout the list. Reserve is also the most improved section of the contract in the last 25 years. No other section even comes close in terms of quality of life changes.
Dalpa has over the years done things never considered by other unions for junior pilots. They were the first to cover medical for furloughed pilots.
They were the first to get furloughed time counted for years of service for pay steps and retirement.
When the retirement plan was frozen the company wanted to replace it with a flat 9 percent DC plan to each pilot. Dalpa changed that to a targeted plan to provide substantially more money to the junior pilots and often 0 percent to the senior guys.
When the retirement plan was terminated they went to a flat DC plan rather then try and balance it back with another targeted plan.
The note money which was distributed to offset the retirement lost in the termination would have gone almost totally to the senior pilots if distributed on a straight percentage basis using the lost retirement of each pilot. DALPA felt that would send to much to the top 50 percent of the pilots so they changed every pilots FAE to 205,000 per year in the calculations to move money more down the list. That still left most going to the top half so they added a years of service minimum distribution.
They modified greenslips to include seniority only in the first one awarded a change from all awards to 2 awards and now 1.
The pay structure has been changed and new hire pilots have received far greater overall raises then any other portion of the list. No more 1500/ 1800 dollars a month flat rate pay ect..
Since the 1113 contract some of the single most expensive improvements such as elimination of recovery flying for training trip drops and increases in furlough protection were negotiated for the junior pilots.
I could go on and on but am tired of typing.
Dalpa has over the years done things never considered by other unions for junior pilots. They were the first to cover medical for furloughed pilots.
They were the first to get furloughed time counted for years of service for pay steps and retirement.
When the retirement plan was frozen the company wanted to replace it with a flat 9 percent DC plan to each pilot. Dalpa changed that to a targeted plan to provide substantially more money to the junior pilots and often 0 percent to the senior guys.
When the retirement plan was terminated they went to a flat DC plan rather then try and balance it back with another targeted plan.
The note money which was distributed to offset the retirement lost in the termination would have gone almost totally to the senior pilots if distributed on a straight percentage basis using the lost retirement of each pilot. DALPA felt that would send to much to the top 50 percent of the pilots so they changed every pilots FAE to 205,000 per year in the calculations to move money more down the list. That still left most going to the top half so they added a years of service minimum distribution.
They modified greenslips to include seniority only in the first one awarded a change from all awards to 2 awards and now 1.
The pay structure has been changed and new hire pilots have received far greater overall raises then any other portion of the list. No more 1500/ 1800 dollars a month flat rate pay ect..
Since the 1113 contract some of the single most expensive improvements such as elimination of recovery flying for training trip drops and increases in furlough protection were negotiated for the junior pilots.
I could go on and on but am tired of typing.
11-13-2012, 08:36 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
11-13-2012, 08:39 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Before I call scheduling and make a fool of myself again, let me ask APC.....
So, there is a rule that says they don't do swaps at the end of the month while a PBS bid is being processed?
I put in for a swap the Saturday after Thanksgiving, it didn't go through, and the denial reason was PBS run in process.
Does that sound right?
So, there is a rule that says they don't do swaps at the end of the month while a PBS bid is being processed?
I put in for a swap the Saturday after Thanksgiving, it didn't go through, and the denial reason was PBS run in process.
Does that sound right?
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