Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
08-02-2009, 09:09 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I've filled out a few of those critiques and honestly the format is so un-user friendly it makes me suprised to hear they are a big deal. You would think they would give you more than 3 lines and text wrapping if they wanted you to be able to write anything coherant or meaningful. Once you run out of space you can't edit without starting over or having to count how many spaces to delete so you can add what you want. I've had maybe 5 things I wanted to mention and barely space for 2. Very frustrating and and difficult to write like that. Made me think they really didn't want the input or they would give us adequate space.
08-02-2009, 10:46 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
South guys,
I understand. Your (and now our) system is great. Your FO's are great. And everything works perfectly and everyone is happy with it. Your FO's are engrained to lower the flaps every time and they NEVER miss them.
Unfortunately, that's not the point. At the very least, we North guys are saying that we are not used to the way it's now supposed to be done and there could be a problem. Not a widespread problem. Just the possibility of a problem. A couple of us have mentioned specific instances where your solution "we check the flaps twice before takeoff anyway" has failed.
So, once again I ask, whats the big deal? Why not add one more level of safety for something that is so important? While it may be that 99.9999% of the time a North crew gets the flaps down prior to takeoff, in this business it only takes one time.
We are part of the same team now, and one incident by either side refelects poorly on us all. Let's not make this a discussion of whos way is better. As I told ACL earlier, I don't care how you want me to run the checklist or who does the preflight, it will get done. But, just as if we were in the cockpit, if someone says that they believe something is not safe we should not dismiss it.
I hope our training department doesn't take this "we're going to do it my way, because that's how we've done it, so you should be ok with it" attitude.
The North side is taking the brunt of the changes, no big deal. We are Delta pilots now. But, as a former NWA pilot, I reserve the right to tell the training department, the chief pilot, this forum, or whoever, when something sucks for the rest of my career. This is not an ego issue for us. It's a safety issue and if it make you feel better, consider it to be an issue just for us.
When it comes to flying, safety first. Let's check the egos at the door. The new system is great, but it is not perfect.
New K
I understand. Your (and now our) system is great. Your FO's are great. And everything works perfectly and everyone is happy with it. Your FO's are engrained to lower the flaps every time and they NEVER miss them.
Unfortunately, that's not the point. At the very least, we North guys are saying that we are not used to the way it's now supposed to be done and there could be a problem. Not a widespread problem. Just the possibility of a problem. A couple of us have mentioned specific instances where your solution "we check the flaps twice before takeoff anyway" has failed.
So, once again I ask, whats the big deal? Why not add one more level of safety for something that is so important? While it may be that 99.9999% of the time a North crew gets the flaps down prior to takeoff, in this business it only takes one time.
We are part of the same team now, and one incident by either side refelects poorly on us all. Let's not make this a discussion of whos way is better. As I told ACL earlier, I don't care how you want me to run the checklist or who does the preflight, it will get done. But, just as if we were in the cockpit, if someone says that they believe something is not safe we should not dismiss it.
I hope our training department doesn't take this "we're going to do it my way, because that's how we've done it, so you should be ok with it" attitude.
The North side is taking the brunt of the changes, no big deal. We are Delta pilots now. But, as a former NWA pilot, I reserve the right to tell the training department, the chief pilot, this forum, or whoever, when something sucks for the rest of my career. This is not an ego issue for us. It's a safety issue and if it make you feel better, consider it to be an issue just for us.
When it comes to flying, safety first. Let's check the egos at the door. The new system is great, but it is not perfect.
New K
08-02-2009, 10:56 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
FWIW, when I hear "there's the salute" or whatever the CA may say to acknowledge the salute.... in my mind that is the same as a callout for flaps 5 or 15.
At 9e, we wouldnt extend the flaps until "clear of the ramp" area. Used to make me twitch to no end. When I got to DL, I somewhat expected the CA to call for the flaps or something like NW... but our procedure is our procedure, and all I care about is having the flaps hanging as soon as we are moving or before so we don't forget... which is what we do.
From a few pages earlier, yes I do know all the Before Start responses. Not all that hard... plus I've been a CA before. Most things are checked, panels are set, individual levers are in their position.
At 9e, we wouldnt extend the flaps until "clear of the ramp" area. Used to make me twitch to no end. When I got to DL, I somewhat expected the CA to call for the flaps or something like NW... but our procedure is our procedure, and all I care about is having the flaps hanging as soon as we are moving or before so we don't forget... which is what we do.
From a few pages earlier, yes I do know all the Before Start responses. Not all that hard... plus I've been a CA before. Most things are checked, panels are set, individual levers are in their position.
08-02-2009, 10:57 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Most of them have a pad of add three pax/sub two or add 1000 lbs. It varies by jet, but unless it is weight critical there is normally weight padding in to it. It allows for the last minute J/S etc. Per our books we just use two of the rev adds for a j/s. It actually is a really quick system, and over time it seems to be getting better. We generally have it done prior to the agent coming down and getting the release.
08-02-2009, 11:02 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
And just to throw my $.02 on this one... Anybody know whatever happened to the last minute bags being confirmed as to whether or not they are included on the AWABS by the ramper? Anybody remember that little gem that we did for awhile? And for Desperado, there is NEVER any tolerance going from Europe back to the USA. I called once to load planning and asked why not, and got a shuffling of papers and a 'I dunno'.. and never persued it any further.
It's like the 767 packs-off procedure. The mod for the outflow valve so you didn't have to take it into manual mode was completed 10 years ago! Then someone finally said "wait... why are we doing this again?"
08-02-2009, 11:12 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
08-03-2009, 03:11 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 767A
Posts: 791
So if 3 flap checks are better than 2 (and not even counting the TO config warning system) why not make it 4? Why not have the marshaller visually check them and give you a thumbs up like in the AF?
08-03-2009, 05:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,590
As far as I know no airlines train for stalls in the sim. Most if not all train for stall recoveries from a procedure standpoint however they do this well before the aircraft actually stalls.
Delta calls it approach to stall training. I believe AA calls it the same thing. The sim is not actually stalled and recovery is commenced prior to stall usually at the onset of stick shaker.
08-03-2009, 05:36 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Sailing you are right. I say stall training but I do mean approach to stall training. There us to be a standard of +/- 100' from start to end of the recovery but I think the Feds had relaxed the recovery part to having no standard but when we performed it in a recurrent or initial you knew to keep it +/- 100', if you did one of the three perfect then they'd waive the requirement to do the other two.
From what I understand none of the regionals sims with data provided by the manufacturer would do realistic stalls. But the ones built by CAE did thanks to the data having come from a real airplane taken off line. From what I understand talking to the check airman who was doing the original month worth of flights and taxing the CAE engineers asked him to do a stall with the SPS off but he refused. So they found someone else willing to do it and that guy said it was a horrific experience. SPS has a purpose.
From what I understand none of the regionals sims with data provided by the manufacturer would do realistic stalls. But the ones built by CAE did thanks to the data having come from a real airplane taken off line. From what I understand talking to the check airman who was doing the original month worth of flights and taxing the CAE engineers asked him to do a stall with the SPS off but he refused. So they found someone else willing to do it and that guy said it was a horrific experience. SPS has a purpose.
08-03-2009, 05:36 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Most of them have a pad of add three pax/sub two or add 1000 lbs. It varies by jet, but unless it is weight critical there is normally weight padding in to it. It allows for the last minute J/S etc. Per our books we just use two of the rev adds for a j/s. It actually is a really quick system, and over time it seems to be getting better. We generally have it done prior to the agent coming down and getting the release.
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