TANSTAAFL

If BB had the powers of persuasion attributed to him above everyone should vote for him because he'd be able to change the MEC overnight, unlike the 15 yrs it took the R/G show.

cni187

You can also pull up your AE preferences and there is a line called most future category. Shouldn't your assignment be placed there? When I was displaced from Atlm88b that's where the NYC 7erb showed up before the lists were published.

Check Essential

I have not read their TA. Its only a couple hours old. My info is 2nd hand.

My point is that an 1113 rejection is not only survivable but may actually have worked in the pilot's favor.
You and DALPA have been saying for years that it was the end of the world. WRONG.

My point is that there are some times in life when you need to stand your ground. You and the rest of the Moak disciples have to realize that your new approach to labor relations may not be the universal truth for all situations.

DALPA has managed to sleep with the lions without being eaten for awhile now, but the APA is dealing with a different set of lions.

Aren't you willing to admit you might have been just a tiny bit wrong?

Boomer

Huge improvements = 4% per year and ALV + 15, plus RJs still capped at 76 seats?

+717!

(I don't know what any of that means but I remember reading it somewhere... )

Boomer

That's exactly how it worked at Comair when we parked 140 of our 50-seaters. Except you have to spell "10 pilots" without the number "1".

Did you guys get the back door issue figured out yet?

SailorJerry

Last I saw the AMR deal was 2% raises with an industry average reset and 79 seat jets with a 89000lb MGTOW limit and it was a 6 year deal. How is that suddenly an 1113 success story (as compared to where we were and where we are now)?

alfaromeo

No it is not better than UAL, not even close. The rejected TA had 4%, 2%, 2% or industry standard adjustment, 2%, 2%. The new TA has 4%, 2%, 2% or industry standard adjustment, 2%, 2%, that is according to the APA Negotiating Committee. Scheduling is basically the same, Scope is basically the same, retirement the same, really all the big dollar items are just about the same.

They changed a few items that don't have substantial value and they kept their claim.

I was avoiding saying I told you so to the forum nudniks, but since Check Essential wants to call me out; I told you so. My advice to the American pilots was to go back and negotiate a contract that would be a bankruptcy contract, get their substantial claim, and then work on rebuilding their contract the next day. It seems that the APA Negotiators and the APA Board of Directors basically agreed with my advice. They are getting a bankruptcy contract and a substantial claim. Look at the comm from the APA Negotiators emphasizing the value of the claim.

So, Check they really showed me up by doing exactly what I suggested they do. Man they stuck it in my face.

alfaromeo

Actually no. The advice I gave was exactly the advice their Board of Directors and Negotiators followed. Get the value from the claim, accept a bankruptcy contract, and then move on to get better as soon as you can. What I saw was two sides that were heading off a cliff Thelma and Louise style because of emotional decisions. It looks like they both came to their senses and made a deal, albeit not much different than it was a few months ago. I never said 1113 wasn't survivable, I said there were enormous risks to not having a contract and the American union folks seem to think that I was right.

You should admit that you were pretty much completely wrong. No they can't reject your contract, no they need you to have a deal, no they will still give you a claim, no you can go on strike, no they will cough up millions if you give up your contract.

I love how you say I am a Moak disciple like somehow it is a religion. Do you think he just issues edicts and everyone nods their heads? How do you know that Moak isn't my disciple? I was on the MEC and he worked for me. I have had numerous fights, some quite heated, with Lee over issues. The difference is rather than throw a public hissy fit, compromise is reached and then we move on as a team. It is a team it is not some autocracy. It just seems that way because we behave like adults when compromise is reached and not like children throwing a tantrum when we don't get our way 100%.

There is no religion, there is only a hard edged business like approach to see that negotiations over a $2 billion a year contract are business negotiations and not a high school food fight. Conducting business like businessmen do does not give you the USA Today full page ads, but it has paid off orders of magnitude better than anyone else.

The APA signed their pseudo bankruptcy deal in 2003. They started negotiating in 2006 and now it's 2012. In that same time frame, Delta went bankrupt, exited bankruptcy in 2007 and we are now on our second deal, all before the APA signed even one. We passed the APA two years after bankruptcy. We have added billions of dollars to our pilots' pockets. Now the APA's deal hopes to achieve a Delta like agreement three years from now, or in 2015. And I need to take lessons from them? Okay, sure that sounds about right. In order to be like them, we need to go back to our bankruptcy deal until 2016. That would be an average pay cut of about 30% for our pilots. Great plan.

Check Essential

Debating with you is fun. To continue the religious metaphor -- You're like some ALPA "fundamentalist". Any data or events that don't align with the Holy Moakist catechism must be heresy or the work of the devil.


1st- If your advice was to go back and get "a bankruptcy contract", why do they expect the membership to ratify the same agreement they just voted down?


2nd- How is there a TA at all? I thought their contract was rejected in 1113. You told us that was Armageddon for any labor union. Game over.

sinca3

I C wut U did der!