Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-30-2012, 08:14 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
I'm taking my skills to MSP.
Forgot to bid you can move up a resv #.
Forgot to bid you can move up a resv #.
10-30-2012, 08:18 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
The fact is that you get a line awarded with the vacation added in, ie. a say, a 81hr. line at the initial bid run, then take away the 21 hr. vacation, and now you can pick up 21 more hours.
If that is not selling back 100% of your vacation, I don't know what is.
No, you cannot pick up time on your vacation days, but the rest of the month you can pick up to ALV+15+ the 21 hours of vacation. ie. you just sold it all back. This, along with no limit on the amount of time you can pick up by swapping with the pot, and trip parking, is what is killing your upward movement. At least we slowed down the trip parking, but I'm sure there's a work-a-round in the works.
The MEC says the 'average line flyer' flys about what, 87 hours now?
OK, let's say we were to go back to a hard 75 hr. cap. and include vacation in that, no sell back. That's 12 hrs. less per month for the entire line holding pilot group, or 16% less flying, which would mean the co. would need to upgrade 16% more pilots (1,600 of 10,000) to do the same amount of flying.
OR...we could just keep doing what we are doing and you can stay in your right seat until some old fart retires...and maybe they replace him, or not, just like they are not replacing all those A330 and 747 Capts. who just left early.
Dammit! I told you not to get me started!!
If that is not selling back 100% of your vacation, I don't know what is.
No, you cannot pick up time on your vacation days, but the rest of the month you can pick up to ALV+15+ the 21 hours of vacation. ie. you just sold it all back. This, along with no limit on the amount of time you can pick up by swapping with the pot, and trip parking, is what is killing your upward movement. At least we slowed down the trip parking, but I'm sure there's a work-a-round in the works.
The MEC says the 'average line flyer' flys about what, 87 hours now?
OK, let's say we were to go back to a hard 75 hr. cap. and include vacation in that, no sell back. That's 12 hrs. less per month for the entire line holding pilot group, or 16% less flying, which would mean the co. would need to upgrade 16% more pilots (1,600 of 10,000) to do the same amount of flying.
OR...we could just keep doing what we are doing and you can stay in your right seat until some old fart retires...and maybe they replace him, or not, just like they are not replacing all those A330 and 747 Capts. who just left early.
Dammit! I told you not to get me started!!
I also miss the good ole days but I don't see us returning to them unless there is a return to regulation.
10-30-2012, 08:21 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Last week I dumped a 33 hr. mil charter to FRA into open time, so I could be at my #4 child's diving competition. That cost me over $7,000, but she was very happy I was there, she was 2nd out of 29 so I was happy I didn't miss that.
The divorced guy who picked it up had over 120hr. for the month...
Geez, I wonder why he's divorced?
I'm sure his ex-wife enjoyed her pay raise.
Oh, and I was out racing my catamaran when I could have been flying a 2 day worth 10:30, so that hobby cost me about $2,300 that weekend.
Life is about living...right?
The divorced guy who picked it up had over 120hr. for the month...
Geez, I wonder why he's divorced?
I'm sure his ex-wife enjoyed her pay raise.Oh, and I was out racing my catamaran when I could have been flying a 2 day worth 10:30, so that hobby cost me about $2,300 that weekend.
Life is about living...right?
I don't think I'll ever understand why some want to work so hard. There are obviously exceptions, such as people with sick children or parents. But some are just money hungry. It's no wonder there's little unity in our profession.
10-30-2012, 08:21 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
I see it the way Timbo does.
Since vacation only shows as pay once the month starts, you can still fly a full month of credit on top of the vacation pay.
So every time 4 pilots in a category senior to you fly one month with a week of vacation with a "regular" months' worth of flying it eliminates the need for another pilot in that category for a month.
If ONLY 4 guys do that every month that is a seat the conpany does not have to fill. every WB captain gets 5 weeks of vacation a year, so it only takes 2.4 captains to pick up 1 trip extra on their vacation months to eliminate a WB CA slot.
THAT is why vacation sellback and provisions that emulate sellback are bad for pilot progression.
We have 2584 WB CA's. If they all fly an extra trip during vacation(they don't all do I'm sure).
Together they have 12,920 months of vacation.
Divide that by 4 to equal a "month of flying".
Divide that by 11 to get a "year of flying" (not 12 because the new pilot gets his 5 weeks of vacation).
When ONLY the WB CA's fly full months during vacation as allowed by the PWA, it can* allow the company to staff:
294 LESS WB CA's
That is a lot of seats, and why the ability to fly extra during vacation is bad for all of us.... The funny part is if the NC brought forth a TA that prohibited picking up on vacation there would be guys *****ing about it.... I still hope that we are trying to eliminate that practice in the future.
Since vacation only shows as pay once the month starts, you can still fly a full month of credit on top of the vacation pay.
So every time 4 pilots in a category senior to you fly one month with a week of vacation with a "regular" months' worth of flying it eliminates the need for another pilot in that category for a month.
If ONLY 4 guys do that every month that is a seat the conpany does not have to fill. every WB captain gets 5 weeks of vacation a year, so it only takes 2.4 captains to pick up 1 trip extra on their vacation months to eliminate a WB CA slot.
THAT is why vacation sellback and provisions that emulate sellback are bad for pilot progression.
We have 2584 WB CA's. If they all fly an extra trip during vacation(they don't all do I'm sure).
Together they have 12,920 months of vacation.
Divide that by 4 to equal a "month of flying".
Divide that by 11 to get a "year of flying" (not 12 because the new pilot gets his 5 weeks of vacation).
When ONLY the WB CA's fly full months during vacation as allowed by the PWA, it can* allow the company to staff:
294 LESS WB CA's
That is a lot of seats, and why the ability to fly extra during vacation is bad for all of us.... The funny part is if the NC brought forth a TA that prohibited picking up on vacation there would be guys *****ing about it.... I still hope that we are trying to eliminate that practice in the future.
Exactly! Thanks for doing the math for us. There is one other problem I see which is much more insideous...that is the 'perception' that you are making a ton of extra dough by flying all that extra time.
So when it comes time to renegotiate new pay rates, instead of looking for a MUCH HIGHER PAY RATE, you start looking for more loopholes, where you can FLY MORE! So instead of demanding larger pay restorations, we demand to be allowed to pick up more time! Just look at our last T/A, 4,8,3,3...and in 2015 we will still be wayyy behind our 2004 pay rates.
Oh, but we'll raise the ALV so you can pick up more time.
Brilliant!
And DALPA is more than happy to have -you- fly more hours per month, because their pay is based on how much extra YOU fly!
10-30-2012, 08:31 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Timbo, I agree with what you say in theory but I see a different reality. AA has just what you described very much like our contract used to be. They also have the highest pilot cost in the industry and get paid a lot less and they are in bankruptcy. The real truth in this hyper-competitive industry is we are all copying the SW model for productivity, you can have high pay and high productivity but you can't have high pay and low productivity, at least not for long. How many more routes would Delta pull out of if we were carrying. 1600 more pilots and how many junior pilots would DL put on the streets ?
I also miss the good ole days but I don't see us returning to them unless there is a return to regulation.
I also miss the good ole days but I don't see us returning to them unless there is a return to regulation.
Too bad we didn't copy the SWA model of premium pay for open time.
10-30-2012, 08:32 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
A buddy of mine at L-CAL is on the B757/767. He was flown to 130 hours of credit on reserve! In September!!!! I hope they get better rules on their new contract.
10-30-2012, 08:33 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
10-30-2012, 08:35 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
Good on you Timbo! I'm sure your daughter was happy you were there. I'm all about financial responsibility, and it's obvious you're just that. Otherwise you wouldn't be able drop those trips.
I don't think I'll ever understand why some want to work so hard. There are obviously exceptions, such as people with sick children or parents. But some are just money hungry. It's no wonder there's little unity in our profession.
I don't think I'll ever understand why some want to work so hard. There are obviously exceptions, such as people with sick children or parents. But some are just money hungry. It's no wonder there's little unity in our profession.
Well, don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to make what I used to make, in 2004! And I'd like to have the $1.4 Million DB money I had too. And only work 12 days a month, or less, to do it, like when we had a 75hr. cap.
But when we had that 42% pay cut shoved up our behinds, and lost the retirement, the wife and I had to make a whole bunch of lifestyle adjustments, ie. sell the toys (J3 Cub, bigger boat) and forget about a second home, or ever going to Europe on vacation, or a bigger boat, or, or, or...you name it, we aren't doing it. The kids college tuition take care of just about any left over money at the end of the month.
We still live in the little 1962 house, in the middle of no where, I bought as an F/O in 1997. Before bankruptcy we had plans to move to a place in Sarasota. Now we are probably going to live in a van, down by the river, after the last one gets out of the house.
But I'd still rather have the time off to go sailing, even if it's on a little, used, 16' boat, than be away more days. I'd like to see our pay come back to where it was, but US Air, AA and UAL are not helping us at all.
Too bad we don't have some type of a national organization where we could all get toghether and control our futures a little more...
10-30-2012, 08:36 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 432
Last week I dumped a 33 hr. mil charter to FRA into open time, so I could be at my #4 child's diving competition. That cost me over $7,000, but she was very happy I was there, she was 2nd out of 29 so I was happy I didn't miss that.
The divorced guy who picked it up had over 120hr. for the month...
Geez, I wonder why he's divorced? I'm sure his ex-wife enjoyed her pay raise.
Oh, and I was out racing my catamaran when I could have been flying a 2 day worth 10:30, so that hobby cost me about $2,300 that weekend.
Life is about living...right?
The divorced guy who picked it up had over 120hr. for the month...
Geez, I wonder why he's divorced?
I'm sure his ex-wife enjoyed her pay raise.Oh, and I was out racing my catamaran when I could have been flying a 2 day worth 10:30, so that hobby cost me about $2,300 that weekend.
Life is about living...right?
10-30-2012, 08:36 AM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
There's an opportunity coming up to maybe slow down this trend of flying to the FAR max.
The FARs are changing and we are going to negotiate a Letter of Agreement to comply. Our work rules are going to undergo a major re-write.
We need to tell DALPA that we are "productive" enough. We're not bankrupt anymore. The pendelum should start to swing back a little more toward quality of life and quicker captain upgrades and less toward maximum flight time pick-ups and unlimited line values.
The FARs are changing and we are going to negotiate a Letter of Agreement to comply. Our work rules are going to undergo a major re-write.
We need to tell DALPA that we are "productive" enough. We're not bankrupt anymore. The pendelum should start to swing back a little more toward quality of life and quicker captain upgrades and less toward maximum flight time pick-ups and unlimited line values.
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