Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-30-2012, 07:44 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
What Timbo is talking about is absolutely common in the int'l categories. In a vacation month, I would guess 80% have a blanket whiteslip in for anything to get a better payday. It isn't "selling" vacation, but it does reduce required headcount in the same way.
10-30-2012, 07:46 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
10-30-2012, 07:48 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
The divorced guy who picked it up had over 120hr. for the month...
Geez, I wonder why he's divorced?
I'm sure his ex-wife enjoyed her pay raise.Oh, and I was out racing my catamaran when I could have been flying a 2 day worth 10:30, so that hobby cost me about $2,300 that weekend.
Life is about living...right?
10-30-2012, 07:48 AM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
The fact is that you get a line awarded with the vacation added in, ie. a say, a 81hr. line at the initial bid run, then take away the 21 hr. vacation, and now you can pick up 21 more hours.
If that is not selling back 100% of your vacation, I don't know what is.
No, you cannot pick up time on your vacation days, but the rest of the month you can pick up to ALV+15+ the 21 hours of vacation. ie. you just sold it all back. This, along with no limit on the amount of time you can pick up by swapping with the pot, and trip parking, is what is killing your upward movement.
If that is not selling back 100% of your vacation, I don't know what is.
No, you cannot pick up time on your vacation days, but the rest of the month you can pick up to ALV+15+ the 21 hours of vacation. ie. you just sold it all back. This, along with no limit on the amount of time you can pick up by swapping with the pot, and trip parking, is what is killing your upward movement.
And we're double screwed because ever since constructive engagement the union is all about "productivity" every bit as much as management. They would have happily allowed trip parking to continue if the line pilots didn't finally revolt.
I preach about this every chance I get but the philosophy nowadays is that its OK to remain a first officer for a few extra years instead of upgrading because we can make up the pay difference by flying to the ALV+15 even during vacation months.
Even wh0res have a better system than us.
10-30-2012, 07:52 AM
Weekend and Holiday Pilot
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Sippin' at the Troubadour
Posts: 1,142
Last week I dumped a 33 hr. mil charter to FRA into open time, so I could be at my #4 child's diving competition. That cost me over $7,000, but she was very happy I was there, she was 2nd out of 29 so I was happy I didn't miss that.
The divorced guy who picked it up had over 120hr. for the month...
Geez, I wonder why he's divorced? I'm sure his ex-wife enjoyed her pay raise.
Oh, and I was out racing my catamaran when I could have been flying a 2 day worth 10:30, so that hobby cost me about $2,300 that weekend.
Life is about living...right?
The divorced guy who picked it up had over 120hr. for the month...
Geez, I wonder why he's divorced?
I'm sure his ex-wife enjoyed her pay raise.Oh, and I was out racing my catamaran when I could have been flying a 2 day worth 10:30, so that hobby cost me about $2,300 that weekend.
Life is about living...right?
10-30-2012, 07:54 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: DAL Pilot
Posts: 1,133
It's the end of October, and I'm reviewing how much others on reserve have worked. Does it seem like a fair distribution of workload that those junior on reserve have logged 74 hours while those senior on reserve have logged 10 hours or less? Was this the intent of the new reserve scheduling system?
Or maybe another question would be, is this a smart way to do business?
Or maybe another question would be, is this a smart way to do business?
10-30-2012, 07:55 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
Nobody seems to care anymore Tim. It just doesn't register in people's brains that flying all these extra hours is costing us captain slots and new hire jobs. We view it as a win if vacation is pay/no credit.
And the union is all about "productivity" every bit as much as management.
I preach about this every chance I get but the philosophy nowadays is that its OK to remain a first officer for a few extra years instead of upgrading because we can make up the pay difference by flying to the ALV+15 even during vacation months.
Even wh0res have a better system than us.
And the union is all about "productivity" every bit as much as management.
I preach about this every chance I get but the philosophy nowadays is that its OK to remain a first officer for a few extra years instead of upgrading because we can make up the pay difference by flying to the ALV+15 even during vacation months.
Even wh0res have a better system than us.
10-30-2012, 07:57 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Nobody seems to care anymore Tim. It just doesn't register in people's brains that flying all these extra hours is costing us captain slots and new hire jobs. We view it as a win if vacation is pay/no credit. Everybody justs looks at that extra pay and doesn't think about the consequences.
And we're double screwed because ever since constructive engagement the union is all about "productivity" every bit as much as management.
I preach about this every chance I get but the philosophy nowadays is that its OK to remain a first officer for a few extra years instead of upgrading because we can make up the pay difference by flying to the ALV+15 even during vacation months.
Even wh0res have a better system than us.
And we're double screwed because ever since constructive engagement the union is all about "productivity" every bit as much as management.
I preach about this every chance I get but the philosophy nowadays is that its OK to remain a first officer for a few extra years instead of upgrading because we can make up the pay difference by flying to the ALV+15 even during vacation months.
Even wh0res have a better system than us.
Just to add a little salt to the wound...last trip, my Capt was a 757A at 12 years with the co. Doesn't that sound like an unbelievable lie today?
10-30-2012, 08:06 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
BUT...if everyone chose time off, like we did prior to the 42% pay cuts of bankruptcy and loss of retirement, they would all move up a seat or two, and have both, more time off, and more money!
Obviously the closer to the top you are, the less you can move up, and the less time you have to save something for retirement, which is why we see senior guys flying 120 a month now. I have flown with many senior F/O's who could be flying Capt. or were flying Capt., but now intend to retire as senior F/O's, flying 120/month as often as possible.
10-30-2012, 08:07 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Since vacation only shows as pay once the month starts, you can still fly a full month of credit on top of the vacation pay.
So every time 4 pilots in a category senior to you fly one month with a week of vacation with a "regular" months' worth of flying it eliminates the need for another pilot in that category for a month.
If ONLY 4 guys do that every month that is a seat the conpany does not have to fill. every WB captain gets 5 weeks of vacation a year, so it only takes 2.4 captains to pick up 1 trip extra on their vacation months to eliminate a WB CA slot.
THAT is why vacation sellback and provisions that emulate sellback are bad for pilot progression.
We have 2584 WB CA's. If they all fly an extra trip during vacation(they don't all do I'm sure).
Together they have 12,920 months of vacation.
Divide that by 4 to equal a "month of flying".
Divide that by 11 to get a "year of flying" (not 12 because the new pilot gets his 5 weeks of vacation).
When ONLY the WB CA's fly full months during vacation as allowed by the PWA, it can* allow the company to staff:
294 LESS WB CA's
That is a lot of seats, and why the ability to fly extra during vacation is bad for all of us.... The funny part is if the NC brought forth a TA that prohibited picking up on vacation there would be guys *****ing about it.... I still hope that we are trying to eliminate that practice in the future.
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