Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-24-2012, 01:35 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Along those lines Delta hasn't publicly announced deals yet which utilize the additional 76 seat jets allowed by the TA. Little tidbits on debt restructuring have come from unexpected sources, like Emirates' complaints of Delta's own ~4+ Billion dollar transactions with the import/export facilities in Brazil and Canada. There have also been unconfirmed reports that Bastian has stated our debt about 3 billion lower than earlier guidance. But the Bastian report is nonsensical without a transaction. You must enjoy watching us guess.
Wait, what?
09-24-2012, 01:40 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
A shrinking DCI is good, a shrinking Jumbo RJ outsourcing is imperative.
Percentages are fine, but if we are indeed going to 796 mainline jets vs 450 DCI then we're going to have a ratio of around 1.77ish and the NC and DALPA would've known that during negotiations.
So why then was the block hour ratio (at it's best) set to 1.56 if the business plan already showed better?
Why not 1.75 and if you go lower it's DCI that gets cut, not us? Why was 1.56 so low?
That doesn't require any growth on our part as long as DCI shrinks to DCI 450. That's not a win. 1.75, that's a win, but to get that we're going to have to give up something aren't we?
Percentages are fine, but if we are indeed going to 796 mainline jets vs 450 DCI then we're going to have a ratio of around 1.77ish and the NC and DALPA would've known that during negotiations.
So why then was the block hour ratio (at it's best) set to 1.56 if the business plan already showed better?
Why not 1.75 and if you go lower it's DCI that gets cut, not us? Why was 1.56 so low?
That doesn't require any growth on our part as long as DCI shrinks to DCI 450. That's not a win. 1.75, that's a win, but to get that we're going to have to give up something aren't we?
09-24-2012, 01:49 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 589
It won't be two years. Negotiations will be starting shortly to handle the FT/DT changes, but you can bet the company will use the opportunity to tweak the rules even more in their favor.
There are a fair number of guys chomping at the bit to relax what protections in the CBA we have left for the ability to fly even more. THAT will drive any hiring way out into 2015 and beyond.
A lot of the rah rah guys were defending the new FT/DT rules by saying "well, that's all well and good, but our CBA protects us against that", but when you press them they'll throw in the qualifier "we won't give that up unless they come to us with something REALLY good", meaning the decision to give it up has already been made, now it's just a matter of dickering on the price.
Put the term "really good" in the context of who says it. Really good might mean trading augmentation rules to match FARs for another %5 pay raise. That's a big win for guys who are at the top of the game, BUT the loss of staffing would devistate %80 of the rest of the group.
The FT/DT rules that we have in our contract are critical to our current staffing model (as the pilots see it). If that gets changed, hoo boy...
There is a really nasty confluence of events in flux, and the increase in the ALV and reserve utilization was only the first step. HND/NRT, FT/DT and the continuing downgauging of the airline is going hit, and hit hard if it goes a certain way, and WE laid the groundwork.
Be prepared for more message massaging....we went from 1,000 new hires, to 450, to 200, to being overstaffed, all in the course of the TA cycle. The same with the RMA. Consider where we are now, and what happens if staffing rules are relaxed even more.
Sure, we got a little more money, but was the money we got WORTH what we gave in return? If we kept our staffing rules the same, fought to keep the number of large RJs (70+ seats) at the previous level, and reduced the 50 seaters I'd say the trinkets we got were "meh, it's a gain, fine", but what we gave up put us at par at best, which is ridiculous considering our negotiating position.
As ACL says, the TA is now the working agreement, and that's in the past. But I really hope that people learned the game, and apply the lessons to the future.
Nu
There are a fair number of guys chomping at the bit to relax what protections in the CBA we have left for the ability to fly even more. THAT will drive any hiring way out into 2015 and beyond.
A lot of the rah rah guys were defending the new FT/DT rules by saying "well, that's all well and good, but our CBA protects us against that", but when you press them they'll throw in the qualifier "we won't give that up unless they come to us with something REALLY good", meaning the decision to give it up has already been made, now it's just a matter of dickering on the price.
Put the term "really good" in the context of who says it. Really good might mean trading augmentation rules to match FARs for another %5 pay raise. That's a big win for guys who are at the top of the game, BUT the loss of staffing would devistate %80 of the rest of the group.
The FT/DT rules that we have in our contract are critical to our current staffing model (as the pilots see it). If that gets changed, hoo boy...
There is a really nasty confluence of events in flux, and the increase in the ALV and reserve utilization was only the first step. HND/NRT, FT/DT and the continuing downgauging of the airline is going hit, and hit hard if it goes a certain way, and WE laid the groundwork.
Be prepared for more message massaging....we went from 1,000 new hires, to 450, to 200, to being overstaffed, all in the course of the TA cycle. The same with the RMA. Consider where we are now, and what happens if staffing rules are relaxed even more.
Sure, we got a little more money, but was the money we got WORTH what we gave in return? If we kept our staffing rules the same, fought to keep the number of large RJs (70+ seats) at the previous level, and reduced the 50 seaters I'd say the trinkets we got were "meh, it's a gain, fine", but what we gave up put us at par at best, which is ridiculous considering our negotiating position.
As ACL says, the TA is now the working agreement, and that's in the past. But I really hope that people learned the game, and apply the lessons to the future.
Nu
09-24-2012, 02:16 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
09-24-2012, 02:16 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
It won't be two years. Negotiations will be starting shortly to handle the FT/DT changes, but you can bet the company will use the opportunity to tweak the rules even more in their favor.
There are a fair number of guys chomping at the bit to relax what protections in the CBA we have left for the ability to fly even more. THAT will drive any hiring way out into 2015 and beyond.
A lot of the rah rah guys were defending the new FT/DT rules by saying "well, that's all well and good, but our CBA protects us against that", but when you press them they'll throw in the qualifier "we won't give that up unless they come to us with something REALLY good", meaning the decision to give it up has already been made, now it's just a matter of dickering on the price.
Put the term "really good" in the context of who says it. Really good might mean trading augmentation rules to match FARs for another %5 pay raise. That's a big win for guys who are at the top of the game, BUT the loss of staffing would devistate %80 of the rest of the group.
The FT/DT rules that we have in our contract are critical to our current staffing model (as the pilots see it). If that gets changed, hoo boy...
There is a really nasty confluence of events in flux, and the increase in the ALV and reserve utilization was only the first step. HND/NRT, FT/DT and the continuing downgauging of the airline is going hit, and hit hard if it goes a certain way, and WE laid the groundwork.
Be prepared for more message massaging....we went from 1,000 new hires, to 450, to 200, to being overstaffed, all in the course of the TA cycle. The same with the RMA. Consider where we are now, and what happens if staffing rules are relaxed even more.
Sure, we got a little more money, but was the money we got WORTH what we gave in return? If we kept our staffing rules the same, fought to keep the number of large RJs (70+ seats) at the previous level, and reduced the 50 seaters I'd say the trinkets we got were "meh, it's a gain, fine", but what we gave up put us at par at best, which is ridiculous considering our negotiating position.
As ACL says, the TA is now the working agreement, and that's in the past. But I really hope that people learned the game, and apply the lessons to the future.
Nu
There are a fair number of guys chomping at the bit to relax what protections in the CBA we have left for the ability to fly even more. THAT will drive any hiring way out into 2015 and beyond.
A lot of the rah rah guys were defending the new FT/DT rules by saying "well, that's all well and good, but our CBA protects us against that", but when you press them they'll throw in the qualifier "we won't give that up unless they come to us with something REALLY good", meaning the decision to give it up has already been made, now it's just a matter of dickering on the price.
Put the term "really good" in the context of who says it. Really good might mean trading augmentation rules to match FARs for another %5 pay raise. That's a big win for guys who are at the top of the game, BUT the loss of staffing would devistate %80 of the rest of the group.
The FT/DT rules that we have in our contract are critical to our current staffing model (as the pilots see it). If that gets changed, hoo boy...
There is a really nasty confluence of events in flux, and the increase in the ALV and reserve utilization was only the first step. HND/NRT, FT/DT and the continuing downgauging of the airline is going hit, and hit hard if it goes a certain way, and WE laid the groundwork.
Be prepared for more message massaging....we went from 1,000 new hires, to 450, to 200, to being overstaffed, all in the course of the TA cycle. The same with the RMA. Consider where we are now, and what happens if staffing rules are relaxed even more.
Sure, we got a little more money, but was the money we got WORTH what we gave in return? If we kept our staffing rules the same, fought to keep the number of large RJs (70+ seats) at the previous level, and reduced the 50 seaters I'd say the trinkets we got were "meh, it's a gain, fine", but what we gave up put us at par at best, which is ridiculous considering our negotiating position.
As ACL says, the TA is now the working agreement, and that's in the past. But I really hope that people learned the game, and apply the lessons to the future.
Nu
I can understand why don't want to paint the picture of what life without a TA would look like. Maybe you will answer these questions:
1. Since the TA, Delta has announced the shutdown of Comair, the retirement of 82 RJ-50's, and the acquisition of 88 B-717's. What does that picture look like absent a TA?
2. Without the TA would Delta have raised capacity next year despite the economic environment or would they be making the same choices they are now?
3. Without the TA would the world economic outlook have been any different that it does now? Would the world economy have any different effect on next year's capacity decisions than they are now?
4. Without the TA, would Delta have given the early out retirement program to 191 pilots?
5. Without the TA, when would Delta be hiring, how many, and why would they be hiring?
You talk around these issues like you seem to have some picture of how the world would be without this agreement yet you are quite vague and just post a bunch of conclusions with no facts to back it up. Please give us some facts so we can try to understand how we would be so much better off without this agreement.
09-24-2012, 02:20 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 7ERB
Posts: 2,039
TYG,
When you say "shrink to profitability" you have to be specific. Many guys on here will throw out the old standby "No airline has ever shrunk to profitability." To which I say - correct but in the age of code-shares and outsourcing (which you correctly mention" that old standby no longer holds true.
DAL can shrink or grow its "network" regardless of what happens to Mainline Delta. So if mainline Delta actually shrinks but the network grows are we shrinking?
From a passenger or travel department point of view - No. From an employee (Pilot) point of view - yes we are shrinking.
Scoop
When you say "shrink to profitability" you have to be specific. Many guys on here will throw out the old standby "No airline has ever shrunk to profitability." To which I say - correct but in the age of code-shares and outsourcing (which you correctly mention" that old standby no longer holds true.
DAL can shrink or grow its "network" regardless of what happens to Mainline Delta. So if mainline Delta actually shrinks but the network grows are we shrinking?
From a passenger or travel department point of view - No. From an employee (Pilot) point of view - yes we are shrinking.
Scoop
TEN
09-24-2012, 02:28 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
I can understand why don't want to paint the picture of what life without a TA would look like. Maybe you will answer these questions:
1. Since the TA, Delta has announced the shutdown of Comair, the retirement of 82 RJ-50's, and the acquisition of 88 B-717's. What does that picture look like absent a TA?
1. Since the TA, Delta has announced the shutdown of Comair, the retirement of 82 RJ-50's, and the acquisition of 88 B-717's. What does that picture look like absent a TA?
As far as your question, it would be the same... Do you really believe that the 717s wouldn't have come, considering DL's absolute love of a great deal on the use market and need for an aircraft in that capacity range?
2. Without the TA would Delta have raised capacity next year despite the economic environment or would they be making the same choices they are now?
3. Without the TA would the world economic outlook have been any different that it does now? Would the world economy have any different effect on next year's capacity decisions than they are now?
4. Without the TA, would Delta have given the early out retirement program to 191 pilots?
5. Without the TA, when would Delta be hiring, how many, and why would they be hiring?
You talk around these issues like you seem to have some picture of how the world would be without this agreement yet you are quite vague and just post a bunch of conclusions with no facts to back it up. Please give us some facts so we can try to understand how we would be so much better off without this agreement.
09-24-2012, 02:40 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
So are you saying that without the TA we would be hiring 1,000 pilots now. By when would 1,000 be hired?
I can understand why don't want to paint the picture of what life without a TA would look like. Maybe you will answer these questions:
1. Since the TA, Delta has announced the shutdown of Comair, the retirement of 82 RJ-50's, and the acquisition of 88 B-717's. What does that picture look like absent a TA?
2. Without the TA would Delta have raised capacity next year despite the economic environment or would they be making the same choices they are now?
3. Without the TA would the world economic outlook have been any different that it does now? Would the world economy have any different effect on next year's capacity decisions than they are now?
4. Without the TA, would Delta have given the early out retirement program to 191 pilots?
5. Without the TA, when would Delta be hiring, how many, and why would they be hiring?
You talk around these issues like you seem to have some picture of how the world would be without this agreement yet you are quite vague and just post a bunch of conclusions with no facts to back it up. Please give us some facts so we can try to understand how we would be so much better off without this agreement.
I can understand why don't want to paint the picture of what life without a TA would look like. Maybe you will answer these questions:
1. Since the TA, Delta has announced the shutdown of Comair, the retirement of 82 RJ-50's, and the acquisition of 88 B-717's. What does that picture look like absent a TA?
2. Without the TA would Delta have raised capacity next year despite the economic environment or would they be making the same choices they are now?
3. Without the TA would the world economic outlook have been any different that it does now? Would the world economy have any different effect on next year's capacity decisions than they are now?
4. Without the TA, would Delta have given the early out retirement program to 191 pilots?
5. Without the TA, when would Delta be hiring, how many, and why would they be hiring?
You talk around these issues like you seem to have some picture of how the world would be without this agreement yet you are quite vague and just post a bunch of conclusions with no facts to back it up. Please give us some facts so we can try to understand how we would be so much better off without this agreement.
Now you kids quit mis behavin
09-24-2012, 02:58 PM
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Joined APC: Nov 2009
Position: C560XL/XLS/XLS+
Posts: 1,278
Let's just wait til the block hour plan for next year comes out in October. I understand the frustration of the junior guys at the stagnation as I sat on the right seat of the Mud Pup for five + years in the early 90's. Me thinks (and that's just me) that hiring will be done this winter. If HND doesn't go our way I see HA as being in play, just look at their route map. ALK is only in play if someone else seems ready to make a move, read AMR. But, AMR can't even get out of their own way, with the creditors becoming impatient.
09-24-2012, 03:25 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Let's just wait til the block hour plan for next year comes out in October. I understand the frustration of the junior guys at the stagnation as I sat on the right seat of the Mud Pup for five + years in the early 90's. Me thinks (and that's just me) that hiring will be done this winter. If HND doesn't go our way I see HA as being in play, just look at their route map. ALK is only in play if someone else seems ready to make a move, read AMR. But, AMR can't even get out of their own way, with the creditors becoming impatient.
Further, the tie in with the PERP was objective evidence that we were fat on pilots with this deal.
P.S. Don't Bill Cosby pics get extra APC L&G points? I need 300 more to get that Thomas Kincaid painting with the anti aircraft gun.
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