Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-17-2012, 03:56 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 793
I like facts too, which is why I agreed with what several pointed out on this thread when the TA was being discussed. As they stated: FACT - The 717 deal (is) was not contingent on TA ratification. Those who were pushing the TA didn't like that FACT. Because the company talked about the two in the same breath we were told by TA supporters that if we passed the TA we'd get the 717s. It didn't matter that there was no factual basis to tie the two together. We were told the company had Plan B ready to go without us. There are some FACTS for you. FACT - SD tied a likelihood of hiring if the TA passed. But as you point out, there was no factual, concrete basis for those talking points. That didn't matter...they were repeated on this board by the likes of Lumberg and Co as if they were facts, no matter who tried to point out that they could easily be ignored. These are the facts about those talking points.
09-17-2012, 04:00 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
09-17-2012, 04:15 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
No, the stupid part is you believing that you live in a vacuum. I notice that in your spin machine you left out this text:
The only reason that staffing was addressed at all was the series of lies that were perpetrated by people, many on this webboard, that were trying to down this TA. How do you and Nu Guy respond to that spin? Well, there is no response. You don't think critically, you are just spring loaded to believe whatever crap is put in front of you by someone that matches your agenda. It is really comical that you don't even give a second glance at outright lies but started whining when the true facts are laid out in front of you. Those guys were spinning, we were presenting the facts.
What part of that staffing argument is spin? Please specifically show the part that was spin. We laid out the aircraft delivery schedules, we laid out the staffing assumptions, we went through a detailed analysis of the retirement assumptions. Anyone with a brain could either accept that analysis or conduct their own given the facts that were presented. It was only after a concerted effort was made to deliberately mislead our pilots that this staffing piece was produced. Is that spin or is that trying to present facts? The problem is you don't want facts, you want emotion to match your agenda.
What is happening in Europe right now? It is in a recession. Yes, the economy is contracting and not by a little. Spain has unemployment above 20%, that is depression level. It is impacting the world economy including China and India. And you call that a scapegoat? Are you so unaware that you don't understand that world business investment drives our entire company? Without the people flying on high fare tickets, this airline would not survive. If you don't have that traffic, you must either contract flying or lose money. It is not that complicated. Or maybe you think it would be better if we went back to unrestrained growth followed by bankruptcy? That worked out so well last time.
So, if hiring doesn't begin in December of this year, it will be July or August of next year. Is seven or eight months such a long time in your world? Seriously, you and Nu Guy are like bratty little children that lash out whenever you don't get your way. Read the entire document and then come back with something that is not based on actual facts and analysis. We specifically mentioned that this was based on flat capacity. What if capacity is down 1 or 2% next year? Well, there is your 7 or 8 months. Do you not have any forward vision or are you just vapor locked into what happens in the next three months?
In that touch and go, what is the difference projected in staffing for this year with and without the TA? 1 person, yes 1. By the end of 2013, the difference was 180 or about 1.5% of the pilot group. So are you saying that that one pilot that one measly pilot is the eight month difference between hiring and not hiring? Is that it, that some pilot looked at that document and said, "Wow, one more pilot needed for this year, yes that pushes me over the edge now I vote yes." What is the spin, is it the touch and go or your selective reading and quoting of the document to match your predefined agenda? Sorry, you are the spin doctors here.
Seriously, listen to you two bleat away on here is just funny. You should be embarrassed. You talk about how to reform the union yet you are unable or unwilling to do even the most basic research about your industry and what affects it. Open your eyes gents and take a look around the world. Quit staring at your belly button, you are not the center of the world.
The only reason that staffing was addressed at all was the series of lies that were perpetrated by people, many on this webboard, that were trying to down this TA. How do you and Nu Guy respond to that spin? Well, there is no response. You don't think critically, you are just spring loaded to believe whatever crap is put in front of you by someone that matches your agenda. It is really comical that you don't even give a second glance at outright lies but started whining when the true facts are laid out in front of you. Those guys were spinning, we were presenting the facts.
What part of that staffing argument is spin? Please specifically show the part that was spin. We laid out the aircraft delivery schedules, we laid out the staffing assumptions, we went through a detailed analysis of the retirement assumptions. Anyone with a brain could either accept that analysis or conduct their own given the facts that were presented. It was only after a concerted effort was made to deliberately mislead our pilots that this staffing piece was produced. Is that spin or is that trying to present facts? The problem is you don't want facts, you want emotion to match your agenda.
What is happening in Europe right now? It is in a recession. Yes, the economy is contracting and not by a little. Spain has unemployment above 20%, that is depression level. It is impacting the world economy including China and India. And you call that a scapegoat? Are you so unaware that you don't understand that world business investment drives our entire company? Without the people flying on high fare tickets, this airline would not survive. If you don't have that traffic, you must either contract flying or lose money. It is not that complicated. Or maybe you think it would be better if we went back to unrestrained growth followed by bankruptcy? That worked out so well last time.
So, if hiring doesn't begin in December of this year, it will be July or August of next year. Is seven or eight months such a long time in your world? Seriously, you and Nu Guy are like bratty little children that lash out whenever you don't get your way. Read the entire document and then come back with something that is not based on actual facts and analysis. We specifically mentioned that this was based on flat capacity. What if capacity is down 1 or 2% next year? Well, there is your 7 or 8 months. Do you not have any forward vision or are you just vapor locked into what happens in the next three months?
In that touch and go, what is the difference projected in staffing for this year with and without the TA? 1 person, yes 1. By the end of 2013, the difference was 180 or about 1.5% of the pilot group. So are you saying that that one pilot that one measly pilot is the eight month difference between hiring and not hiring? Is that it, that some pilot looked at that document and said, "Wow, one more pilot needed for this year, yes that pushes me over the edge now I vote yes." What is the spin, is it the touch and go or your selective reading and quoting of the document to match your predefined agenda? Sorry, you are the spin doctors here.
Seriously, listen to you two bleat away on here is just funny. You should be embarrassed. You talk about how to reform the union yet you are unable or unwilling to do even the most basic research about your industry and what affects it. Open your eyes gents and take a look around the world. Quit staring at your belly button, you are not the center of the world.
I Thanks for a very insightful post.
09-17-2012, 04:18 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
So you thought those jobs were going to show up in 76 days? You do know the contract was signed on 1 July 2012. I also hope your really don't believe that Delta airlines operates in a vacuum. Have you picked up a newspaper since 1 July?
Your stating two thousand jobs will be required by the contract or implied by ALPA is also BS. The document you reference put out by ALPA is still available on the website. You should have read it before voting on the contract but take the time to read it now. Read all if it including the assumptions. The actual number assuming a bunch of things which they carefully spell out was 1107 additional jobs. Thats almost half your quoted number. That number was at the end of 2016 or over 4 years from now. The number quoted for 2012 as far as extra jobs was 1 total job. They quoted 180 additional jobs by the end of 2013 or over 15 months from now. If the economy causes marketing to make a 2 percent downward adjustment in their block hour plan we lose over 200 jobs.
The 1107 additional jobs is almost exactly what you would expect with the addition of the 717's to the fleet and the resultant shift in block hours from DCI to the mainline. The first 717 however is still about a year away from a in service date. Again the contract was signed 76 days ago. Talk to me in 3 years!
Your stating two thousand jobs will be required by the contract or implied by ALPA is also BS. The document you reference put out by ALPA is still available on the website. You should have read it before voting on the contract but take the time to read it now. Read all if it including the assumptions. The actual number assuming a bunch of things which they carefully spell out was 1107 additional jobs. Thats almost half your quoted number. That number was at the end of 2016 or over 4 years from now. The number quoted for 2012 as far as extra jobs was 1 total job. They quoted 180 additional jobs by the end of 2013 or over 15 months from now. If the economy causes marketing to make a 2 percent downward adjustment in their block hour plan we lose over 200 jobs.
The 1107 additional jobs is almost exactly what you would expect with the addition of the 717's to the fleet and the resultant shift in block hours from DCI to the mainline. The first 717 however is still about a year away from a in service date. Again the contract was signed 76 days ago. Talk to me in 3 years!
09-17-2012, 04:36 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 793
So you thought those jobs were going to show up in 76 days? You do know the contract was signed on 1 July 2012. I also hope your really don't believe that Delta airlines operates in a vacuum. Have you picked up a newspaper since 1 July?
Your stating two thousand jobs will be required by the contract or implied by ALPA is also BS. The document you reference put out by ALPA is still available on the website. You should have read it before voting on the contract but take the time to read it now. Read all if it including the assumptions. The actual number assuming a bunch of things which they carefully spell out was 1107 additional jobs. Thats almost half your quoted number. That number was at the end of 2016 or over 4 years from now. The number quoted for 2012 as far as extra jobs was 1 total job. They quoted 180 additional jobs by the end of 2013 or over 15 months from now. If the economy causes marketing to make a 2 percent downward adjustment in their block hour plan we lose over 200 jobs.
The 1107 additional jobs is almost exactly what you would expect with the addition of the 717's to the fleet and the resultant shift in block hours from DCI to the mainline. The first 717 however is still about a year away from a in service date. Again the contract was signed 76 days ago. Talk to me in 3 years!
Your stating two thousand jobs will be required by the contract or implied by ALPA is also BS. The document you reference put out by ALPA is still available on the website. You should have read it before voting on the contract but take the time to read it now. Read all if it including the assumptions. The actual number assuming a bunch of things which they carefully spell out was 1107 additional jobs. Thats almost half your quoted number. That number was at the end of 2016 or over 4 years from now. The number quoted for 2012 as far as extra jobs was 1 total job. They quoted 180 additional jobs by the end of 2013 or over 15 months from now. If the economy causes marketing to make a 2 percent downward adjustment in their block hour plan we lose over 200 jobs.
The 1107 additional jobs is almost exactly what you would expect with the addition of the 717's to the fleet and the resultant shift in block hours from DCI to the mainline. The first 717 however is still about a year away from a in service date. Again the contract was signed 76 days ago. Talk to me in 3 years!
I don't recall ever stating we would hire this year. It is however still being considered. I read SD's memo. I guess you are not aware he is the VP of flight ops. He has his agenda. The memo said we might hire depending on about five varibles. I am really shocked so many on here have not read so much of what they post about.
No, you didn't state we would hire this year, but you along with the others were fine with SD pushing the idea; a voice of authority and knowledge who puts out an official communication from the company. No one I recall who was in support of the TA said anything like that at the time, "I guess you are not aware he is the VP of flight ops. He has his agenda." Should we not trust SD when he suggest positive results for supporting DALPA's recommended course of action? You're right, maybe all communications from company representatives should come with a disclaimer about how their ideas and suggestions should be considered favoring the company and should not be construed in a manner which you might think beneficial to the employee. As much as anyone who tried to point out how none of the dangled sweets were actually in writing, it was constantly dismissed as the musings of ill-informed pilots.
I read the SD memo about hiring. I am well aware of the caveats he attached. But the fact is he was part of a coordinated effort that benefited from the cozy relationship between management and union. You can be shocked all you want; its your drama.
09-17-2012, 04:47 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,239
I would like the following change in the next contract:
Currently we have a max of 6 short calls, though that does go to 7 next winter I believe.
Right now I see that when we have training in our month, we are limited from 6 to 5 short calls because of the 3 less days of availability on ones schedule that now thankfully does not take away from our off days.
I propose that when a person sitting reserve flies, that that persons SC amount also goes down. So if you get a 3 day trip, when you finish you now are only on the hook for 5 SCs instead of 6. I know the company probably won't go for this, but It would be nice. In July I flew a bunch and was done before the month was out, but still was on the hook for all my SCs, so they couldn't really fly me, but they could still make me sit SC.
Luckily I'm done for the month on SCs, 5 in a row all truncated so I could sit perpetually for 6 days.
Currently we have a max of 6 short calls, though that does go to 7 next winter I believe.
Right now I see that when we have training in our month, we are limited from 6 to 5 short calls because of the 3 less days of availability on ones schedule that now thankfully does not take away from our off days.
I propose that when a person sitting reserve flies, that that persons SC amount also goes down. So if you get a 3 day trip, when you finish you now are only on the hook for 5 SCs instead of 6. I know the company probably won't go for this, but It would be nice. In July I flew a bunch and was done before the month was out, but still was on the hook for all my SCs, so they couldn't really fly me, but they could still make me sit SC.
Luckily I'm done for the month on SCs, 5 in a row all truncated so I could sit perpetually for 6 days.
09-17-2012, 05:03 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
I think if we needed pilots for summer 2013 flying we'd have had announcements regarding the hiring window opening. Usually we don't need to hire for the fall, but who knows.
Also I thought we usually had the next summer block hour plan by this point in time. What's the delay?
Also I thought we usually had the next summer block hour plan by this point in time. What's the delay?
09-17-2012, 05:13 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
hey shiz... since when did Frasier start playing with the Broncos?
09-17-2012, 05:22 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
This board is getting more and more like the worthless DALPA board. Same guys, same jousting back and forth. How about we quit looking at where we've been and focus on where we're going.
09-17-2012, 05:30 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
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