Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-23-2012, 09:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Thank you for the candid response.
But how can we look at repeated failure in the billions and say "m'eh, that's in the past" while dealing with current failures which are costing Delta money?
Like the example of JT8D reliability, "unscheduled" engine removals are a cost and eventually get averaged in. My friends who underwrite Delta's risk management program consider our carrier a "bad risk" due to the losses they have sustained as a result of obligations to DCI carriers who were under our risk management program. Those sorts of factors clearly impact our Company's bottom line and management are FOOLS if they do not consider these costs. We are one crash away from being in the same Dog House FedEx was in when they crashed two MD11's, a 727 and put an A300 in Subic Bay all in one policy year. "hello, Mohammed... I mean Prince ... I understand you're our insurer now? Why won't you pay our claims? Oh you say we can't force a sovereign King to pay? But you charged us twice what Lloyds wants ..."
ALPA should be pointing out that flawed logic... LOUDLY!
Beating up DCI pilots for further concessions will not be enough to fix what's wrong with the model. There just is not enough money to be had from that source (besides the hypocrisy of our union participating in such a scheme). DCI, to survive, is going to experience escalating costs which Delta is going to have to pay. Call it unexpected if you want, but mark my words, the current model is unsustainable at current rates. GoJets is a time (longevity) bomb, just as Mesa was.
How much can pilot wages offset ?
But how can we look at repeated failure in the billions and say "m'eh, that's in the past" while dealing with current failures which are costing Delta money?
ALPA should be pointing out that flawed logic... LOUDLY!
Beating up DCI pilots for further concessions will not be enough to fix what's wrong with the model. There just is not enough money to be had from that source (besides the hypocrisy of our union participating in such a scheme). DCI, to survive, is going to experience escalating costs which Delta is going to have to pay. Call it unexpected if you want, but mark my words, the current model is unsustainable at current rates. GoJets is a time (longevity) bomb, just as Mesa was.
How much can pilot wages offset ?
- Redundant & parasitic Owners
- Redundant & parasitic Management
- Redundant & parasitic back office staff
- Maintenance operations
- Flight operations
- The inefficiencies of aircraft and resource utilization caused by scheduling 6 incompatible airlines over the top of one another
I'd just take out the JT8D part, not because I disagree but because I just don't know. Are those things underperforming their expected reliability all the sudden or something?
06-23-2012, 09:07 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
DCI carriers don't have the infrastructure to operate the 717. We made the investment and agreed upon a pay rate. What now is to prevent Pinnacle pilots from negotiating an equal or higher B717 pay rate? Nothing. But they don't have one and to my knowledge are not negotiating for one.
Crew costs are 28% higher with modest DCI margins on the CRJ-900. Delta mainline also pays their "behind the scenes" employees more and provides better benefits. Everything is more expensive at mainline, but diluted over 110+ seats versus 76 seats, the economy of scale begins to take effect. Hence - outsourcing.
Crew costs are 28% higher with modest DCI margins on the CRJ-900. Delta mainline also pays their "behind the scenes" employees more and provides better benefits. Everything is more expensive at mainline, but diluted over 110+ seats versus 76 seats, the economy of scale begins to take effect. Hence - outsourcing.
They have hangars and mechanics and can outsource heavy and engine maintenance just as well as we would. Training? Outsource it to Alteon like we will initially and just like they do with FlightSafety.
We'll provide the gates and gate agents and passengers. And we'll provide the fuel.
And we'll pay them a profit.
So how are they not capable of operating 717s again? I mean when AirTran was doing maintenance at the end of the concourses out in the open, how were they any better than XJT/Skywest, Comair, Pinnacle, GoJet, Republic, Compass/TransStates would be?
Especially Republic. If they can operate E170s, E175s, E190s and A319s, how can they not operate a 717?
Why must you all be so concerned with what management is doing? Is it that important to get yours, or to sabotage management, or to prove your point? Do you feel like you made a HUGE mistake allowing the outsourcing to begin with? You're not making any sense. You're just being greedy and not acting in the best interest of your Delta "family".
06-23-2012, 09:07 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 489
You're absolutely right, we don't know what's around the corner in this industry, and it could be really bad. That's exactly why giving up significant things which will be gone forever to get the level of gains in the TA that would be rolled back the instant a true crisis hits is being called into question.
^^^^ This (emphasis mine)
The whole "bad economic stuff is around the corner" arguement to me is a good reason to not give some of this stuff away right now. Especially work rules and more 76 seaters that result in the outsourcing of our flying to dci to become more profitable for the company.
Last edited by APCLurker; 06-23-2012 at 09:22 AM.
06-23-2012, 09:15 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
We had a discussion about the 88 engines as it was something of interest to them. I won't write what he said, but, the impression I came away with was the JT8Ds work well despite working very... very... very hard.
That was before we instituted flaps 5 takeoffs to allow higher derates and the whole point was to reduce stress on those engines. So maybe its not the case anymore? Don't know. But surely someone around here knows if they achieved the objective.
I do love flaps 5.
06-23-2012, 09:17 AM
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Of course we can't ever be cheaper than them for 76 seat lift. We can't ever be cheaper than them for B717, MD88, A320 or 777 lift.
But so what?
The only reason we're having this discussion is because we allow management the ability to outsource a limited but ever increasing amount of that lift, previous hard caps notwithstanding. The real question is despite the outsource providers being able to operate anything and everything cheaper than us, always and forever, can we successfully operate a DC-9-10 sized aircraft at mainline?
Obviously we can, we just choose not to, because we value the bargaining credits and quids we get from bartering that flying to management so that they can shop to the lowest bidder in the first place. Nothing about that disgusting process has any more to do with the 90 seat "RJ" than it would the 747.
Would the company be in danger if it brought 76ers in house at a mainline cost structure, once you lopped off all the massive layers of redundancy and costs of incompetency at the fake airline regional level? Even if that lift had a net increase in cost, would the additional costs be so severe that, ammortized over the entire operation like every other plane we have is, really drag the company down in a big way? Come on. Really?
06-23-2012, 09:20 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 134
For acl, ftb, newknow, Carl, Johnso, togo_lk and others i am missing....your not just good pilots but good AIRLINE pilots. You see the big picture and understand the heritage and responsibilty of the positions you hold.
Thank you from me and the other lurkers as we wade through this sea of half truths.
Pro ALPA or anti ALPA this sales job and most of the reasoning posted by a few I will leave un-named has been an absolute insult to the intelligence of most members of this forum.
Thank you from me and the other lurkers as we wade through this sea of half truths.
Pro ALPA or anti ALPA this sales job and most of the reasoning posted by a few I will leave un-named has been an absolute insult to the intelligence of most members of this forum.
06-23-2012, 09:31 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
I guess. But then so is this guy:
Sort of. For now. I mean on his facebook page under affiliation it probably says "its complicated". But those of us in The Order can now see who is really pulling the strings.
Sort of. For now. I mean on his facebook page under affiliation it probably says "its complicated". But those of us in The Order can now see who is really pulling the strings.
06-23-2012, 10:06 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
06-23-2012, 10:11 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
06-23-2012, 10:14 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
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Posts: 12,487
I'll take the infraction:
Bill, I wil roll the dice. This profession was not built on the backs of cowards and people of weak spirit and mind. If you cannot handle rocking the boat on occasion, do the profession a favor and get out. If you cannot afford the lack of 19% over three years, ask your wife to pull some weight or live within your means.
I will add this, consider the disdain industry pilots have towards APA and Crandall for B-scale. When we end up with 3x the 70/76-seaters as UAL has 70-seaters and the new industry norm becomes 75% outsourced, remember who embraced and pushed that agenda. Also, understand your fellow OAL professionals will look down at you every time you stop for a coffee, sit down at a restaurant, etc. Former DAL pilots will have no respect for you and the hat you love so much will become a target for ridicule. If I end up flying with you, expect checklist only conversation; in fact that goes for any current ALPA type pushing this TA.
What we individually leave behind is nothing we can take with us on that final check flight westbound. The only thing a guy like yourself will leave behind is a legacy of lies and betrayal.
Bill, I wil roll the dice. This profession was not built on the backs of cowards and people of weak spirit and mind. If you cannot handle rocking the boat on occasion, do the profession a favor and get out. If you cannot afford the lack of 19% over three years, ask your wife to pull some weight or live within your means.
I will add this, consider the disdain industry pilots have towards APA and Crandall for B-scale. When we end up with 3x the 70/76-seaters as UAL has 70-seaters and the new industry norm becomes 75% outsourced, remember who embraced and pushed that agenda. Also, understand your fellow OAL professionals will look down at you every time you stop for a coffee, sit down at a restaurant, etc. Former DAL pilots will have no respect for you and the hat you love so much will become a target for ridicule. If I end up flying with you, expect checklist only conversation; in fact that goes for any current ALPA type pushing this TA.
What we individually leave behind is nothing we can take with us on that final check flight westbound. The only thing a guy like yourself will leave behind is a legacy of lies and betrayal.
Carl
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