grasshopper

If it's all doom and gloom you're afraid of with the economy then the idea that this is a growth deal should be off the table. So that leaves us with a TA that ain't too hot in a contracting airline situation. Sure we can squeeze more hourly pay out of this but in many ways we pay a little for it. Is it worth the amount you'll get to permanently give away jobs? The MEC is selling their product. If they don't then why would anyone vote for it anyway...by the way...several of their own did not vote in favor. It's really up to you and I would understand your reasons but I don't really follow the logic here. Management will always look for the best deal whether it's this deal or the next...I expect no less from them. There will be some other angle on the next contract...it's their job to give us a carrot at all the levels.

just say you're senior and you want the pay...I'd accept that

Ferd149

Waves,

Agree with most of what youre saying. I too am holding my nose and voting yes. You'll have to scroll way back to see my poker and military analogies,but simply this is a crappy TA......it's an ok extension.

Ferd

newKnow

Why do you say that all we could realistically hope for? Do you have any information to support that statement?

Ferd149

Psssssttttttt. NewK is Obi one kenobi, you're right he can pull it out of the swamp and take the management Sith too

gloopy

That line of thinking is a very fine one indeed. The TA is clearly giving up things to get things. You can argue its a net gain if you want to, so let's call it that for the sake of argument.

But we're still giving up things to get things. So if we need to take the deal because of how bad the economy and our peer set is, just how much worse do things need to get (post TA) for us to be right back at the negotiating table dealing in concessions? One of the biggest "gains" by the pro-TA folks is the pay. 19.7% "raise" even though some of it was paid for in flat out sold jobs including gifting the 100K lbs jets at non-union/won't-hire-furloughed-DL-pilots DPJ, and some of it was in the form of securing permanent profit sharing pay. If things get bad, we still have that pay, right?

But wait, what's the first thing to go when things get bad? OK thats debatable between pay and any block hour/ratio "restrictions" on RJ's, but they both go pretty quickly.

If things get real bad what's harder to do, keep 255 at 255, or force the company to park (or grossly underutilize) DC-9-10 replacement jets at DCI that are twice as expensive to park as their mainline equivalent DC-9-30's?

So if we need to yes the TA because of the perilous environment we find ourselves in, we guarantee we will get 100% of the negatives in the TA. That is non debatable. But how much of the positives that we got in exchange will we get to keep?

Then there's the matter of loopholes. The 2014/2015 window for DCI is absolutely unacceptable. No deal. If this thing is being sold as hard core block hour ratio protections, then it needs to deliver as such. Not yet another extremely management friendly compliance window so we can get hammered like the AFKLM JV with a 2.9 year no floor bottom and a one time snapshot rebalance followed by 2.9 years of no bottom. The LRJ block hour protections will work the same way, that's pretty clear.

And the lost jobs are gone forever. And the 50 or so DPJ jobs that we already paid for and resecured in arbitration will be gone forever too, to non union, won't hire DL pilots on furlough DPJ. Really?

newKnow

Waves,

The world has been in unprecedented turmoil for years. Yet, "the world" doesn't pay me, Delta Air Lines does. How has Delta been doing during all of this unprecedented turmoil?

Why you have to diminish us to less than "doctor/lawyer" status to make your point about accepting the TA, is troubling. If you think it's a good deal, leave it at that. Your "we ain't all that" mentality hurts us more than 500 seventy seat RJ's.

I believe your attitude hurts the company, too. This is a company that wants us to be professionals. This is a company that wants us to portray that professionalism to the public. This is a company that spent millions of dollars on an add campaign to tell the world how professional we were. This company wants us to use that professionalism to save them tens of millions of dollars every year. So, I would ask you to alter your commentary about us and limit it to what you think about yourself.

If the company thinks we aren't of professional grade, then let them say it. But, that's not what I've heard from them, so far.

forgot to bid

Did you know Newk when he was flying F-15s in the Navy?

Ferd149

Shhhhhhhhhh you fool, you KNOW that is super(pilot) secret

gloopy

And he could land it on a carrier without the sissy crutch tailhook that lesser aviators rely on. In a tailwind. And grease it. And still stop before the tower. Without heating the brakes. Every time.

forgot to bid

Newk, Navy F-15 guy...