Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-08-2012, 08:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 489
First you were on here claiming those that you disagreed with had an "entitlement mentality" and threw around up-the-hill-both-ways "tales of woe" (5 years on panel)......
Now you are using the tired-old "if you don't like it quit" cop-out of an arguement.
You sure are on a roll Bigbus.
06-08-2012, 10:19 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: A big one that looks like a little one
Posts: 633
Originally Posted by johnso29
Ummmmmm......Mesa went bankrupt and continues to shrink. Might not make for a strong argument.
Bottom line - an ALPA carrier has a section 1 that basically says "if it says "Operated by Mesa Airlines" on the side, it's flown by Mesa Pilots". Think even a Bombardier repo pilot could touch one of our airplanes? No. But I bet there isn't anything preventing a Boeing pilot from moving all the 717s to wherever they're being retrofit.
My argument is that they are an ALPA carrier and they have better scope than ours. Doesn't matter the scope or scale of the operation. There is no outsourcing of Mesa flying. Period.
06-08-2012, 10:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: A big one that looks like a little one
Posts: 633
Originally Posted by TheManager
So, as I understand your post, we have no straws or leverage now but we will in 2016 because of the start of a mass pilot exodus?
I see just the opposite. If we vote this TA in as it reads today, we will lose most of all of our leverage going forward.
* DL has a 50 seat problem today
* DL has a debt /credit probelm today
DL has to fix the 50 seat probelm to lower their debt. They have to lower their debt to obtain more credit at favorable rates to shore up the network. Richard needs the credit to make a run at AMR assets and to protect the Pacific network which would entail either:
* Purchasing HAL
* JAL JV
* Purchasing ALK (to secure the feed)
Currently, with this TA, we are solving the 50 seat/debt issue with little return on our help unless you believe 4/8/3/3 is the best it will ever get for us.
If we say NO, it will not take a complete overhaul to fix the TA. Close the loop holes, fix the downside protection language, pay and scope and their will be a deal that can be ratified.
RA will be ready with his team right away first week of July. DALPA will be the hold up though as we should NOT send back the same NC and TO should be removed as well.
We go from 600+ DCI airplanes to a lower hard cap. For the first time in a decade the DCI fleet is shrinking. What kind of momentum is that? What kind of leverage is that?
Maybe if our raise had been 0/0/0/0 we'd have a shiny new fleet of CRJ-900s coming. But because ALPA negotiates for 12000 pilots, and not one selfish one, we don't always get all of what we want. Negotiating capital being what it is you know. Have you been a part of Section 6 before?
My argument for better leverage in 2016 is a simple issue of supply and demand. When 5 airlines need 10,000 pilots in the following 10 years, where will the most highly qualified pilots go? To the highest compensating airline with the best work rules. Where are they all flocking now? Oh wait. They're not.
06-08-2012, 10:49 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 489
Because this is how it starts.
I would bet some of the discussion being held back in the day when rj's were first given away was: "it's only 50 seat aircraft and flying....."
Then later it became: "we have to give up more than 50 seat flying.....but it is only 76 seat flying that we are giving up...."
The next potential statement with regards to charter aircraft is: "It's only 8 charter configured A-319's with XX seats......" or "we are eliminating our A-319 charter aircraft. That flying will now be performed by DBJ using XXX aircraft...."
Those charter aircraft violated our scope clause. alpa gave them away in this TA, even after saying scope was not for sale.
Scope erosion always starts somewhere. The proverbial camel's nose under the tent.
To me this is yet another symptom of a larger problem.....
And to answer your question on "what are we gonna do?" with regards to those aircraft: How about not give the scope away and let management figure their charter company problem out.
06-08-2012, 11:16 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
My argument for better leverage in 2016 is a simple issue of supply and demand. When 5 airlines need 10,000 pilots in the following 10 years, where will the most highly qualified pilots go? To the highest compensating airline with the best work rules. Where are they all flocking now? Oh wait. They're not.
06-08-2012, 11:17 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
APC Lurker,
Or as one Pan Am pilot famously said:
"If Pan Am flies a kite, the string has to be held by a Pan Am pilot"
Or as one Pan Am pilot famously said:
"If Pan Am flies a kite, the string has to be held by a Pan Am pilot"
06-08-2012, 11:27 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Because this is how it starts.
I would bet some of the discussion being held back in the day when rj's were first given away was: "it's only 50 seat aircraft and flying, and they're small jets, nobody will want them anyways, and they're not even Boeing....."
Then later...
I would bet some of the discussion being held back in the day when rj's were first given away was: "it's only 50 seat aircraft and flying, and they're small jets, nobody will want them anyways, and they're not even Boeing....."
Then later...
06-08-2012, 11:29 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Originally Posted by ATW
Mediated talks between American Airlines (AA) and its pilots on a new labor pact, which took place June 4-7 under the supervision of a judge, are slated to continue the week of June 10 as the sides seek to avoid a bankruptcy-court imposed solution later this month.
06-08-2012, 11:33 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
You know what the beauty of the 3 year contract model is?
Every time you want to do something your pilots will view as positive you can now just sit on it until the last year and then roll it out with some sort of desired concessions.
That way nothing good, like more airplanes, ever happens without forcing a concession elsewhere. You can't do that as often with a 5 year contract, but a 3 year you can.
Not to mention the "we'll get them next time" mentality it creates.
Every time you want to do something your pilots will view as positive you can now just sit on it until the last year and then roll it out with some sort of desired concessions.
That way nothing good, like more airplanes, ever happens without forcing a concession elsewhere. You can't do that as often with a 5 year contract, but a 3 year you can.
Not to mention the "we'll get them next time" mentality it creates.
06-08-2012, 11:41 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: One with wings
Posts: 332
So, when do we vote?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
