Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-05-2012, 02:20 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Apparently things got heated at the PTC roadshow today.
06-05-2012, 02:24 PM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^
I've read the TA and current PWA several times. Every time someone brings up a negative scenario of what the company COULD do, they all seem to me to be intelligent possibilities and LIKELY to happen since they're allowed. And yet, I keep reading again and again by Bill Lumberg and (I'm surprised) Johnso that these are far-fetched, "unlikely", or a mis-reading. Sorry, I absolutely disagree, and I can read a contract equally as well as you if not better. Delta is LIKELY to take it right to whatever line is allowed, and LIKELY to maximize what they've already shown they want, 70+ seaters, and LIKELY to park the 50seat as they've already said they desire and have been doing. They are LIKELY to use the work-rule changes they've asked for, and the ALV increase, and the reserve +15. You don't bargain for something that's not valuable to you, and that is what they bargained for. Come on Bill and Johnso, stop being so blindly optimistic and looking through naively rose-colored glasses! Analyze the changes from a worst-case scenario, not some hopeful "I just can't imagine the company doing THAT" mentality.
Vote No. Don't give up work rules and scope that will never come back. Heck I probably have 3-4years flying left before I pull the plug, and I wouldn't vote yes for this TA even with 40% pay increase. Don't be the guys that dropped the baton...
I've read the TA and current PWA several times. Every time someone brings up a negative scenario of what the company COULD do, they all seem to me to be intelligent possibilities and LIKELY to happen since they're allowed. And yet, I keep reading again and again by Bill Lumberg and (I'm surprised) Johnso that these are far-fetched, "unlikely", or a mis-reading. Sorry, I absolutely disagree, and I can read a contract equally as well as you if not better. Delta is LIKELY to take it right to whatever line is allowed, and LIKELY to maximize what they've already shown they want, 70+ seaters, and LIKELY to park the 50seat as they've already said they desire and have been doing. They are LIKELY to use the work-rule changes they've asked for, and the ALV increase, and the reserve +15. You don't bargain for something that's not valuable to you, and that is what they bargained for. Come on Bill and Johnso, stop being so blindly optimistic and looking through naively rose-colored glasses! Analyze the changes from a worst-case scenario, not some hopeful "I just can't imagine the company doing THAT" mentality.
Vote No. Don't give up work rules and scope that will never come back. Heck I probably have 3-4years flying left before I pull the plug, and I wouldn't vote yes for this TA even with 40% pay increase. Don't be the guys that dropped the baton...
06-05-2012, 02:33 PM
Doing Nothing
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,316
Man I thought we'd have a PTC roadshow thread going by now.
06-05-2012, 02:36 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Frontier Airlines, which has been slashing service at General Mitchell International Airport , is offering select Wisconsin residents a one-time opportunity to convert accumulated frequent flier miles to Delta Air Lines’ rewards program.
“In recent months, Frontier has announced significant reductions to its Milwaukee flight schedule as part of a companywide effort to return to profitability,” a message posted on Frontier’s website states. “We realize that the reductions may inconvenience Frontier EarlyReturns members and make it difficult to earn and use the Frontier EarlyReturns miles they already have.”
Frontier is making the conversion offer as a “courtesy” to its frequent fliers who reside in Wisconsin, according to the statement.
Mile conversions will be done on an even basis. For example, 1,000 EarlyReturns miles will equal 1,000 Delta miles.
Frontier frequent fliers must register by Aug. 31 if interested in making the conversion. The offer is limited to program participants with valid Wisconsin addresses, the website states.
To participate in the offer, all EarlyReturns miles must be converted to Delta frequent flier miles.
In an email sent to members of Frontier’s EarlyReturns program, the airline noted that Delta is growing its presence in Milwaukee, and by July expects to have 31 nonstop flights each weekday from Milwaukee to Atlanta, Cincinnati, Detroit, Memphis, Minneapolis-St. Paul and New York City’s two major airports, John F. Kennedy International and LaGuardia.
Delta and Delta Connection carriers serve more than 340 destinations worldwide — offering travelers “nearly unlimited travel opportunities from Milwaukee,” the email states.
Frontier had operated a hub at Mitchell until beginning a series a drastic service cuts late last year. Additional cuts that went into effect at the beginning of June leave Frontier with just seven daily departures at Mitchell, compared with 86 last year.
Indianapolis-based Republic Airways Holdings Inc. purchased Frontier and Midwest Airlines, which had been based in Oak Creek, in separate deals in 2009. Frontier eventually absorbed the Midwest brand and operations.
“In recent months, Frontier has announced significant reductions to its Milwaukee flight schedule as part of a companywide effort to return to profitability,” a message posted on Frontier’s website states. “We realize that the reductions may inconvenience Frontier EarlyReturns members and make it difficult to earn and use the Frontier EarlyReturns miles they already have.”
Frontier is making the conversion offer as a “courtesy” to its frequent fliers who reside in Wisconsin, according to the statement.
Mile conversions will be done on an even basis. For example, 1,000 EarlyReturns miles will equal 1,000 Delta miles.
Frontier frequent fliers must register by Aug. 31 if interested in making the conversion. The offer is limited to program participants with valid Wisconsin addresses, the website states.
To participate in the offer, all EarlyReturns miles must be converted to Delta frequent flier miles.
In an email sent to members of Frontier’s EarlyReturns program, the airline noted that Delta is growing its presence in Milwaukee, and by July expects to have 31 nonstop flights each weekday from Milwaukee to Atlanta, Cincinnati, Detroit, Memphis, Minneapolis-St. Paul and New York City’s two major airports, John F. Kennedy International and LaGuardia.
Delta and Delta Connection carriers serve more than 340 destinations worldwide — offering travelers “nearly unlimited travel opportunities from Milwaukee,” the email states.
Frontier had operated a hub at Mitchell until beginning a series a drastic service cuts late last year. Additional cuts that went into effect at the beginning of June leave Frontier with just seven daily departures at Mitchell, compared with 86 last year.
Indianapolis-based Republic Airways Holdings Inc. purchased Frontier and Midwest Airlines, which had been based in Oak Creek, in separate deals in 2009. Frontier eventually absorbed the Midwest brand and operations.
06-05-2012, 02:56 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Aviation Week on Delta RJ deal #1
Bombardier Prepared For Changes In 50-Seat Regional Jet Sector
Aviation Daily Jun05, 2012 , p. 1.01
Andrew Compart
Bombardier does not expect any undue pressure from Delta Air Lines ’ planned reduction of its Bombardier CRJ100/200 fleet, which could cut close to 200 aircraft from the carrier’s feeder operations in the coming years.
More than 1,100 variants from the CRJ100/200 family have been built since the first delivery in 1991, including the Challenger 800 business jet variant , and 83 have been retired since 2003, an Aviation Week analysis of fleet data shows. By contrast, only two of competitor Embraer ’s 1,151 ERJ twinjets have been retired, and both were prototypes, although with 102 airframes stored, the Embraer regional jet outpaces the CRJ storage rate by 20 units.
Despite these numbers, Ron Sheridan, VP-asset management and structured finance for Bombardier Commercial Aircraft, says the CRJ market is not weaker than the ERJ’s but merely the victim of a series of liquidations and restructurings among operators, particularly in the mid-2000s. Sheridan notes that the condition of aircraft returned in bankruptcy often makes them difficult to market and more likely to be scrapped.
Embraer has not faced that situation as often, adds Sheridan.
Calgary, Canada-based Avmax, a leasing and maintenance group that acquires CRJs for parts and leasing, echoes Bombardier ’s supply and demand analysis.
“There is a huge market out there for the CRJs , but also a huge amount of CRJs for sale,” says Bunny Bundell, director of contract, sales and leasing for the company’s Avmax Aircraft Leasing division.
Figures compiled by Airfax, which provides up-to-date information on the availability of commercial transport aircraft, show the number of CRJ family aircraft on the market rising by almost 25% since the start of 2012 to about 40 airframes, although this is still less than the peak of about 60 available when Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines (both major CRJ operators) filed for Chapter 11 protection. Those reorganizations and the 2006 liquidation of U.S. regional Flyi prompted Bombardier to double the size of its commercial aircraft asset management group to support CRJ remarketing. In 2009, the group also established a permanent sales office in Moscow as part of its effort to make the sales less U.S.-centric and broaden the CRJ customer base. That base has expanded from 31 operators in 2006 to 56 today, more of which are in Russia and the Commonwealth of Independent States than in the U.S., says Sheridan.
Bombardier also considers Africa a prime market.
Also in 2009, Bombardier Services Corp. signed an agreement with Charlotte, N.C.-based Magellan Aircraft Services to disassemble CRJ100/200 jets, refurbish components and market them to operators. At that time, Sheridan says, the market for the aircraft had expanded so rapidly that there was a huge requirement for spares, with some companies paying as much as $6 million for a CRJ in 2006 “just to turn it into a parts department.”
Of the 83 CRJs retired since 2003, the Aviation Week database shows that 31 were last operated by Delta’s wholly owned Comair division. Another 15 were last operated by Tyrolean Airways in Austria. Thirteen were last operated by Mesa Air group , which returned a large part of its fleet during its 2010 Chapter 11 restructuring, and eight by France-based Aer Littoral, which went into bankruptcy protection in 2003 and closed in early 2004.
CRJ100/200 retirements held steady between six and eight aircraft a year from 2006 to 2009, but increased to 32 units in 2010 with 13 from Mesa, seven from Tyrolean, six from Comair and small batches from numerous other carriers . Former Comair-operated aircraft accounted for seven of the 12 retirements in 2011 and four of the five so far this year.
Sheridan does not expect such large numbers of retirements in the coming years, even with Delta’s planned phase-out, because of the broader operator base—which he says could top 60 by the end of this year—and the generally good condition of the 50-seaters coming off lease .
Delta plans to return many of its 50-seaters just before major engine overhauls come due. But Airfax publisher Jim Williams notes that the aircraft could be acquired at a lower price in that condition , and that General Electric —which supplies engines to the entire regional jet fleet —likely will offer deals on engine overhaul costs to reap the benefits of years of continued maintenance.
Aviation Daily Jun05, 2012 , p. 1.01
Andrew Compart
Bombardier does not expect any undue pressure from Delta Air Lines ’ planned reduction of its Bombardier CRJ100/200 fleet, which could cut close to 200 aircraft from the carrier’s feeder operations in the coming years.
More than 1,100 variants from the CRJ100/200 family have been built since the first delivery in 1991, including the Challenger 800 business jet variant , and 83 have been retired since 2003, an Aviation Week analysis of fleet data shows. By contrast, only two of competitor Embraer ’s 1,151 ERJ twinjets have been retired, and both were prototypes, although with 102 airframes stored, the Embraer regional jet outpaces the CRJ storage rate by 20 units.
Despite these numbers, Ron Sheridan, VP-asset management and structured finance for Bombardier Commercial Aircraft, says the CRJ market is not weaker than the ERJ’s but merely the victim of a series of liquidations and restructurings among operators, particularly in the mid-2000s. Sheridan notes that the condition of aircraft returned in bankruptcy often makes them difficult to market and more likely to be scrapped.
Embraer has not faced that situation as often, adds Sheridan.
Calgary, Canada-based Avmax, a leasing and maintenance group that acquires CRJs for parts and leasing, echoes Bombardier ’s supply and demand analysis.
“There is a huge market out there for the CRJs , but also a huge amount of CRJs for sale,” says Bunny Bundell, director of contract, sales and leasing for the company’s Avmax Aircraft Leasing division.
Figures compiled by Airfax, which provides up-to-date information on the availability of commercial transport aircraft, show the number of CRJ family aircraft on the market rising by almost 25% since the start of 2012 to about 40 airframes, although this is still less than the peak of about 60 available when Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines (both major CRJ operators) filed for Chapter 11 protection. Those reorganizations and the 2006 liquidation of U.S. regional Flyi prompted Bombardier to double the size of its commercial aircraft asset management group to support CRJ remarketing. In 2009, the group also established a permanent sales office in Moscow as part of its effort to make the sales less U.S.-centric and broaden the CRJ customer base. That base has expanded from 31 operators in 2006 to 56 today, more of which are in Russia and the Commonwealth of Independent States than in the U.S., says Sheridan.
Bombardier also considers Africa a prime market.
Also in 2009, Bombardier Services Corp. signed an agreement with Charlotte, N.C.-based Magellan Aircraft Services to disassemble CRJ100/200 jets, refurbish components and market them to operators. At that time, Sheridan says, the market for the aircraft had expanded so rapidly that there was a huge requirement for spares, with some companies paying as much as $6 million for a CRJ in 2006 “just to turn it into a parts department.”
Of the 83 CRJs retired since 2003, the Aviation Week database shows that 31 were last operated by Delta’s wholly owned Comair division. Another 15 were last operated by Tyrolean Airways in Austria. Thirteen were last operated by Mesa Air group , which returned a large part of its fleet during its 2010 Chapter 11 restructuring, and eight by France-based Aer Littoral, which went into bankruptcy protection in 2003 and closed in early 2004.
CRJ100/200 retirements held steady between six and eight aircraft a year from 2006 to 2009, but increased to 32 units in 2010 with 13 from Mesa, seven from Tyrolean, six from Comair and small batches from numerous other carriers . Former Comair-operated aircraft accounted for seven of the 12 retirements in 2011 and four of the five so far this year.
Sheridan does not expect such large numbers of retirements in the coming years, even with Delta’s planned phase-out, because of the broader operator base—which he says could top 60 by the end of this year—and the generally good condition of the 50-seaters coming off lease .
Delta plans to return many of its 50-seaters just before major engine overhauls come due. But Airfax publisher Jim Williams notes that the aircraft could be acquired at a lower price in that condition , and that General Electric —which supplies engines to the entire regional jet fleet —likely will offer deals on engine overhaul costs to reap the benefits of years of continued maintenance.
06-05-2012, 02:56 PM
Can't abide NAI
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Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
Aviation Week on Delta RJ deal #2
Delta Fleet Deal Drops Close To 200 50-Seaters To Gain Larger RJs
Aviation Daily May25, 2012 , p. 1.01
Andrew Compart
Delta Air Lines will cut close to 200 50-seat aircraft operated by its Delta Connection feeder operation, about 60% of the existing fleet, under the tentative agreement reached with its mainline pilots.
The agreement limits the number of 50-seaters Delta can rely on to 125 aircraft as a condition for adding a further 70 76-seat Bombardier CRJ900 and Embraer 175 aircraft to its network. The other condition for adding the 76-seaters is that it must acquire more mainline aircraft, which Delta will fulfill if it completes a deal reached earlier this week to sublease all 88 of Southwest Airlines ’ Boeing 717 aircraft. Delta will receive about three 717s a month, starting in mid-2013, if that accord is finalized.
As of the end of March, third-party contract carriers were operating 297 CRJ200 aircraft and 26 Embraer ERJ-145 aircraft for Delta Connection , for a total of 323 50-seaters.
The tentative deal with pilots would place a new cap of 125 on these jets. Details about how quickly this reduction will begin and how long Delta has to comply with the new scope terms, however, are not being disclosed by the airline. The AirLinePilots Association , however, tells Aviation Week the 50-seaters will be cut as the 717s are added to the fleet from 2013 to 2015.
The agreement on the 717 sublease leaves several questions unanswered: If Delta’s pilots vote to approve the tentative agreement , which regional carrier or carriers will fly the 50-seaters that remain in Delta’s operation ; and which feeders will Delta use to operate the additional 70 larger regional jets?
Questions also remain about what aircraft Delta will choose to operate, and while it has unexercised options with Embraer for 36 E-175 aircraft, the airline is not discussing possible orders.
The fate of the 50-seaters, and possibly the larger aircraft, may rest with Pinnacle Airlines, which currently operates 141 50-seat CRJ200s for Delta Connection . Pinnacle is in the midst of a Chapter 11 reorganization that is funded by debtor-in-possession financing provided by Delta, which also has revised its capacity purchase agreement (CPA) to continue Pinnacle’s CRJ200 feed until at least July 2022.
While this new CPA applies to 140 CRJ200s , Delta can remove aircraft from Pinnacle’s fleet when Delta’s financing arrangement for each aircraft expires (although neither Delta nor Pinnacle will provide specific details).
Delta also can reduce the number, on a one-to-one basis, if it reaches agreements with Pinnacle for flying more regional jets with 70 or more seats.
But Pinnacle is not the only 50-seat operator for Delta. SkyWest Inc. subsidiaries SkyWest Airlines and ExpressJet Airlines operate 156 CRJ200s for Connection , while Republic Airways ’ Chautauqua Airlines division provides a further 26 50-seat ERJ-145s . Republic is trying to cut $40-60 million from Chautauqua’s annual costs to make its 50-seat flying profitable.
The current 76-seat jet operators for Delta include Pinnacle with 57 CRJ900s , SkyWest and ExpressJet with a combined 31 CRJ900s , Republic’s Shuttle America unit with 16 E-175 aircraft and Trans States Holdings subsidiary Compass Airlines with 36 E-175s . Delta also owns 13 CRJ900 aircraft that are operated by its own regional airline subsidiary, Comair .
Aviation Daily May25, 2012 , p. 1.01
Andrew Compart
Delta Air Lines will cut close to 200 50-seat aircraft operated by its Delta Connection feeder operation, about 60% of the existing fleet, under the tentative agreement reached with its mainline pilots.
The agreement limits the number of 50-seaters Delta can rely on to 125 aircraft as a condition for adding a further 70 76-seat Bombardier CRJ900 and Embraer 175 aircraft to its network. The other condition for adding the 76-seaters is that it must acquire more mainline aircraft, which Delta will fulfill if it completes a deal reached earlier this week to sublease all 88 of Southwest Airlines ’ Boeing 717 aircraft. Delta will receive about three 717s a month, starting in mid-2013, if that accord is finalized.
As of the end of March, third-party contract carriers were operating 297 CRJ200 aircraft and 26 Embraer ERJ-145 aircraft for Delta Connection , for a total of 323 50-seaters.
The tentative deal with pilots would place a new cap of 125 on these jets. Details about how quickly this reduction will begin and how long Delta has to comply with the new scope terms, however, are not being disclosed by the airline. The AirLinePilots Association , however, tells Aviation Week the 50-seaters will be cut as the 717s are added to the fleet from 2013 to 2015.
The agreement on the 717 sublease leaves several questions unanswered: If Delta’s pilots vote to approve the tentative agreement , which regional carrier or carriers will fly the 50-seaters that remain in Delta’s operation ; and which feeders will Delta use to operate the additional 70 larger regional jets?
Questions also remain about what aircraft Delta will choose to operate, and while it has unexercised options with Embraer for 36 E-175 aircraft, the airline is not discussing possible orders.
The fate of the 50-seaters, and possibly the larger aircraft, may rest with Pinnacle Airlines, which currently operates 141 50-seat CRJ200s for Delta Connection . Pinnacle is in the midst of a Chapter 11 reorganization that is funded by debtor-in-possession financing provided by Delta, which also has revised its capacity purchase agreement (CPA) to continue Pinnacle’s CRJ200 feed until at least July 2022.
While this new CPA applies to 140 CRJ200s , Delta can remove aircraft from Pinnacle’s fleet when Delta’s financing arrangement for each aircraft expires (although neither Delta nor Pinnacle will provide specific details).
Delta also can reduce the number, on a one-to-one basis, if it reaches agreements with Pinnacle for flying more regional jets with 70 or more seats.
But Pinnacle is not the only 50-seat operator for Delta. SkyWest Inc. subsidiaries SkyWest Airlines and ExpressJet Airlines operate 156 CRJ200s for Connection , while Republic Airways ’ Chautauqua Airlines division provides a further 26 50-seat ERJ-145s . Republic is trying to cut $40-60 million from Chautauqua’s annual costs to make its 50-seat flying profitable.
The current 76-seat jet operators for Delta include Pinnacle with 57 CRJ900s , SkyWest and ExpressJet with a combined 31 CRJ900s , Republic’s Shuttle America unit with 16 E-175 aircraft and Trans States Holdings subsidiary Compass Airlines with 36 E-175s . Delta also owns 13 CRJ900 aircraft that are operated by its own regional airline subsidiary, Comair .
06-05-2012, 02:58 PM
Sho me da money!
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B25, Left
Posts: 947
All you're doing is pushing Section 6 ville back two years. We will live under this contract until 2017 because in 2015 there is nothing the company wants bad enough to start early so we can suck it up now (my preference) or suck it up later. I'll take my chances with this contract and no ALV+2 (mandatory additional work), no ALV +15, Reserve Guarantee +2 (more work), current profit sharing (makes up for some of the lost pay), no sick verification program, 255 large profitable RJs (with no NEW state of the art (WiFi, IFE, First class in all) and let the company live with however many 50s they want. All we're going to do is push the pain down the road and it will be even harder later to move the line/bar.
Not sure if I feel it is reasonable, (you have valid points) to leave these significant gains and (not what I wanted) pay raise on the table.... Base hits every time v. fantasy baseball home runs.....
Fortunately away from APC the vast majority of pilots will vote yes on this TA because it is better than the alternative. It is the smart thing to do IMHO.
06-05-2012, 03:46 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Wait. I'm still undecided, but right now leaning towards a NO vote. But I've just been discussing things. Some scenarios are pretty far fetched IMO, but others are reasonable. I don't think the company will be building 5-8 day domestic trips worth 35 hours. I also don't think guys are going to be constantly flying ALV + 15. I'm not denying it could happen, but I think it's unlikely it will happen to an individual a lot.
It may not seem like it but I, too, am undecided in which way to vote. I'm trying to be rational and unemotional in my decision making. I also agree some scenarios are techinically possible but pretty far fetched. I think the company trying to "Force Majeur" the ratio away with "a circumstance beyond....blah....blah" or "ALPA will bend over and give the company relief from it" as pretty farfetched. On the other hand I can see the company, at some point for whatever reason, reducing the ratio to 1.56 and parking larger paying aircraft... The plus is we would have more aircraft, the minus is they would be lower paying.....
Denny
06-05-2012, 03:52 PM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Johnso,
It may not seem like it but I, too, am undecided in which way to vote. I'm trying to be rational and unemotional in my decision making. I also agree some scenarios are techinically possible but pretty far fetched. I think the company trying to "Force Majeur" the ratio away with "a circumstance beyond....blah....blah" or "ALPA will bend over and give the company relief from it" as pretty farfetched. On the other hand I can see the company, at some point for whatever reason, reducing the ratio to 1.56 and parking larger paying aircraft... The plus is we would have more aircraft, the minus is they would be lower paying.....
Denny
It may not seem like it but I, too, am undecided in which way to vote. I'm trying to be rational and unemotional in my decision making. I also agree some scenarios are techinically possible but pretty far fetched. I think the company trying to "Force Majeur" the ratio away with "a circumstance beyond....blah....blah" or "ALPA will bend over and give the company relief from it" as pretty farfetched. On the other hand I can see the company, at some point for whatever reason, reducing the ratio to 1.56 and parking larger paying aircraft... The plus is we would have more aircraft, the minus is they would be lower paying.....
Denny
I completely agree.
06-05-2012, 04:25 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
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