Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-23-2012, 05:25 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
Firmly believe mgt threw this out to gauge the sentiment of the pilot group. If we vote it down by 40-60, they will come back with a slightly higher number. If we vote it down by 20-80, I think we could see a higher number come our way, as they want it to pass by 50.1 percent, and not one vote more.
To say that aircraft purchases hinge on our contract is nonsense, we better not fall for that one. As far as the RJ scope sale, placing any negotiating value on the retirement of the 50 seaters is insanity. If they are killing DL economically, manglement will rid themselves of them in the quickest way possible. This is nothing personal guys/gals, just business!
To say that aircraft purchases hinge on our contract is nonsense, we better not fall for that one. As far as the RJ scope sale, placing any negotiating value on the retirement of the 50 seaters is insanity. If they are killing DL economically, manglement will rid themselves of them in the quickest way possible. This is nothing personal guys/gals, just business!
05-23-2012, 05:33 AM
Senior by choice
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 427
Fear, huh? Let's look at facts:
Airtran: 86 months in negotiations, they voted down a TA and didn't get another contract for about 5 years. They voted down the first TA with Southwest over seniority and just a short time later had to eat a much worse deal.
Continental: 47 months in negotiations
United: 36 months in negotiations
American: 60+ months in negotiations, now in bankruptcy
Airways: Merged in late 2005, now 80 months in negotiations
So what facts do you have to claim I am being fearful? The 29 month figure came from a slide that the NMB Chairwoman presented to the MEC and is posted on the ALPA website and included all the railroads which tend to have shorter negotiations. Why would she put that there? You can ignore facts and history at your own peril. Please don't tell me that we are going to bet our careers based on the advice of some internet blowhard. At least do some basic research first.
Airtran: 86 months in negotiations, they voted down a TA and didn't get another contract for about 5 years. They voted down the first TA with Southwest over seniority and just a short time later had to eat a much worse deal.
Continental: 47 months in negotiations
United: 36 months in negotiations
American: 60+ months in negotiations, now in bankruptcy
Airways: Merged in late 2005, now 80 months in negotiations
So what facts do you have to claim I am being fearful? The 29 month figure came from a slide that the NMB Chairwoman presented to the MEC and is posted on the ALPA website and included all the railroads which tend to have shorter negotiations. Why would she put that there? You can ignore facts and history at your own peril. Please don't tell me that we are going to bet our careers based on the advice of some internet blowhard. At least do some basic research first.
We have been told over and over from you guys since bankruptcy that if we keep helping management out with all their issues it will pay huge dividends when we get to Section six. Well, apparently that is not the case since you are telling us management does not plan on being as accommodating as you guys thought.
This is something all of us should keep in mind going forward and during this vote ....oh, and please tell TO if he wants to compare our pay to any period in time it should be when we entered bankruptcy not when we exited just so he can get a better sound bite.
Very Dissapointed and no longer a supporter of Delta Air Lines!
05-23-2012, 05:37 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
05-23-2012, 05:41 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
Interesting thread.
I found an interesting thread http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...int-paper.html involving a point paper about the TA. It is a dispassionate numerical analysis of our TA.
Having said that, if we can combine what the poster says with what BigFlyA said a few pages back, we may have a winner.
My biggest hurdle has been emotion on this issue. I'm mad
that the company doesn't value our advanced training/education and impact on the day-to-day operation. I'm mad that they don't recognize our contribution to getting the NWA-DAL merger done and not the soup sandwich that LCC has. I'm mad that they don't remember the cuts they rammed down the pilots' throats in bankruptcy.
Having said that, please read the pdf file and if anyone knows how to better share the document, please help the original poster out.
I found an interesting thread http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...int-paper.html involving a point paper about the TA. It is a dispassionate numerical analysis of our TA.
Having said that, if we can combine what the poster says with what BigFlyA said a few pages back, we may have a winner.
My biggest hurdle has been emotion on this issue. I'm mad
that the company doesn't value our advanced training/education and impact on the day-to-day operation. I'm mad that they don't recognize our contribution to getting the NWA-DAL merger done and not the soup sandwich that LCC has. I'm mad that they don't remember the cuts they rammed down the pilots' throats in bankruptcy.Having said that, please read the pdf file and if anyone knows how to better share the document, please help the original poster out.
05-23-2012, 05:42 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 109
Now, the 717s are coming -- if we ratify this deal.
Delta to lease 717s Southwest acquired in AirTran merger
Orlando Business Journal
Date: Wednesday, May 23, 2012, 9:00am EDT
Delta Air Lines, Inc. plans to lease 88 Boeing 717s that Southwest Airlines acquired when it bought Orlando-based AirTran but doesn’t want, reports The Associated Press.
Atlanta-based Delta (NYSE: DAL) will start taking three 717s a month beginning in mid-2013 if its pilots approve a new labor contract, the news service reported.
Delta would use the 117-seat planes to replace 50-seat regional jets and the DC-9s the airline got when it bought Northwest, The AP said.
Southwest (NYSE: LUV) is the largest commercial carrier at Orlando International Airport , while Delta is the second-largest carrier.
Delta to lease 717s Southwest acquired in AirTran merger
Orlando Business Journal
Date: Wednesday, May 23, 2012, 9:00am EDT
Delta Air Lines, Inc. plans to lease 88 Boeing 717s that Southwest Airlines acquired when it bought Orlando-based AirTran but doesn’t want, reports The Associated Press.
Atlanta-based Delta (NYSE: DAL) will start taking three 717s a month beginning in mid-2013 if its pilots approve a new labor contract, the news service reported.
Delta would use the 117-seat planes to replace 50-seat regional jets and the DC-9s the airline got when it bought Northwest, The AP said.
Southwest (NYSE: LUV) is the largest commercial carrier at Orlando International Airport , while Delta is the second-largest carrier.
05-23-2012, 05:49 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
What's difficult to swallow here is you and the Union are pushing all this information about the length of time negotiations would take. This must be made on the assumption that our management is not planning to negotiate in good faith. If that is the case constructive engagement is a FAILURE!
We have been told over and over from you guys since bankruptcy that if we keep helping management out with all their issues it will pay huge dividends when we get to Section six. Well, apparently that is not the case since you are telling us management does not plan on being as accommodating as you guys thought.
This is something all of us should keep in mind going forward and during this vote ....oh, and please tell TO if he wants to compare our pay to any period in time it should be when we entered bankruptcy not when we exited just so he can get a better sound bite.
Very Dissapointed and no longer a supporter of Delta Air Lines!
We have been told over and over from you guys since bankruptcy that if we keep helping management out with all their issues it will pay huge dividends when we get to Section six. Well, apparently that is not the case since you are telling us management does not plan on being as accommodating as you guys thought.
This is something all of us should keep in mind going forward and during this vote ....oh, and please tell TO if he wants to compare our pay to any period in time it should be when we entered bankruptcy not when we exited just so he can get a better sound bite.
Very Dissapointed and no longer a supporter of Delta Air Lines!
We have added value to Delta in the last five years and they have put value back into our pockets. We have compounded gains into our contract at a rate that vastly exceeds other pilot groups. If we stop adding value to the company, they will put us to the side and ignore us for as long as they can. Events of the last five years have shown that we can sit for years, in fact many years with nothing happening in old school Section 6.
If you are unsure about what happens when you no longer are a business partner look what happened to Mesa (Freedom). As soon as they got on the bad side of Delta they went Scarface on them, they ended up in bankruptcy.
Here are the returns (both pay and DC plan) per year since bankruptcy exit:
2008 - 5.3% (average, some higher some lower)
2009 - 5%
2010 - 5%
2011 - 5%
2012 - 4% + 4%(TA) = 8.1% compounded
2013 - 8.5% (TA)
2014 - 4% (TA)
2015 - 3% (TA)
Quick, one of you financial gurus do a compounded return on that and let me know what you come up with.
05-23-2012, 05:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
OK, first let me get the Jim Cramerisms disclosures out of the way. I am NYC based CP on reserve (always have been). 2008 hire with an MBA and I dont own DAL stock in my charitable trust. I haven't even opened the new TA but got info from various posts and the Charimen's Letter. What does this mean, I've been trained to think like mgmt and know what to pick up on in their press releases. I like our current mgmt team as they have openly disclosed their plan since 2008, and have executed it so far with impressive results. I wont pull any punches but tell it as I see it.
Lesson #1: Any Mgmts stated goal since MBA 101 is to maximize shareholder value, taught from day one and reemphasized daily. This means maximize profit by minimizing costs. Pilots are a cost, period.
Lesson #2: Don't take it personal, its just business.
As a newhire in 2008 the differnet mgmt types came down to newhire indoc and gave their outlook for the future of the co. If you knew what to pick-up on the groundwork was being laid out.
At this time, rumors of a merger with NWA were on the street but these folks were hush. But they were saying things like Dal wants a 100 seat aircraft and there was no reasonable a/c on the mkt to buy. Also, Dal is rapidly exapnding overseas but is weak in Asia and the overlap with their system was negligible. Enter NW's DC-9's (temp fix) and the Narita hub. Deal done.
Next RA and mgmt types state in multiple speeches and investor conferences that Dal will win in NY and that HVC's need the total business class experience. That they need the HVC to have the business class experience from Leg one on their journey. Enter the slot swap, terminal build and more 70 seat two class aircraft. And being a frequent USAir commuter into LGA and seeing the RJ operation there, there was no surprise that 90+ % of the flying went to RJ's. Most city pairs do not support mainline aircraft but do have wealthy HVC's coiming into NYC and beyond and want the FC seat. Anyone not see this coming?
Now we have this TA which is immediately backed up by press releases of a 717 lease from SWA and worse of all the pilot group is thrown out as hinging on the deal. If anyone believes that they are ignorant of big business. Mgmt is trying to tell us thru the media that the 88 717's are hingent on this TA passing. But do you really think SWA (and Boeing) would hinge this deal on the vote of a pilot group who took a BK contract? SWA mgmt has made a strategic plan regarding these aircraft and their future 737 orders and is not going to look back. Since we are one year out from rx the first 717's, I'm sure our mgmt guarenteed SWA mgmt that the deal would be done and divestiture of their jets would be per the contract. Dal has a year to get it done. SWA's stock has been hammered in the mkts for deviating from their business model including operating two aircraft types. They will get rid of these jets and DAL will take them on-time. Kicker: DAL loves getting good jets at cheap prices relative to new aircraft. Will they turn away 88 narrowboby jets they've been seeking since 2008 at a inexpensive price? Of course not, it's just business.
What's next? Dal hurried this deal thru to allow time for more negotiations in case the first (or subsequent deals) fail. They will come back to the table to achieve their goals. They are on a timeline that we now know (mid 2013). New JFK terminal and LGA concourse connection also mid 2013. In my opinion vote no and renegotiate. I'm also a fan of DPA, at least to force a vote and scare ALPA into reform. The fact that Moak was a 7ER guy making about $200k a yr at DAL and last year made $500k at ALPA makes me ill.
Lesson #1: Any Mgmts stated goal since MBA 101 is to maximize shareholder value, taught from day one and reemphasized daily. This means maximize profit by minimizing costs. Pilots are a cost, period.
Lesson #2: Don't take it personal, its just business.
As a newhire in 2008 the differnet mgmt types came down to newhire indoc and gave their outlook for the future of the co. If you knew what to pick-up on the groundwork was being laid out.
At this time, rumors of a merger with NWA were on the street but these folks were hush. But they were saying things like Dal wants a 100 seat aircraft and there was no reasonable a/c on the mkt to buy. Also, Dal is rapidly exapnding overseas but is weak in Asia and the overlap with their system was negligible. Enter NW's DC-9's (temp fix) and the Narita hub. Deal done.
Next RA and mgmt types state in multiple speeches and investor conferences that Dal will win in NY and that HVC's need the total business class experience. That they need the HVC to have the business class experience from Leg one on their journey. Enter the slot swap, terminal build and more 70 seat two class aircraft. And being a frequent USAir commuter into LGA and seeing the RJ operation there, there was no surprise that 90+ % of the flying went to RJ's. Most city pairs do not support mainline aircraft but do have wealthy HVC's coiming into NYC and beyond and want the FC seat. Anyone not see this coming?
Now we have this TA which is immediately backed up by press releases of a 717 lease from SWA and worse of all the pilot group is thrown out as hinging on the deal. If anyone believes that they are ignorant of big business. Mgmt is trying to tell us thru the media that the 88 717's are hingent on this TA passing. But do you really think SWA (and Boeing) would hinge this deal on the vote of a pilot group who took a BK contract? SWA mgmt has made a strategic plan regarding these aircraft and their future 737 orders and is not going to look back. Since we are one year out from rx the first 717's, I'm sure our mgmt guarenteed SWA mgmt that the deal would be done and divestiture of their jets would be per the contract. Dal has a year to get it done. SWA's stock has been hammered in the mkts for deviating from their business model including operating two aircraft types. They will get rid of these jets and DAL will take them on-time. Kicker: DAL loves getting good jets at cheap prices relative to new aircraft. Will they turn away 88 narrowboby jets they've been seeking since 2008 at a inexpensive price? Of course not, it's just business.
What's next? Dal hurried this deal thru to allow time for more negotiations in case the first (or subsequent deals) fail. They will come back to the table to achieve their goals. They are on a timeline that we now know (mid 2013). New JFK terminal and LGA concourse connection also mid 2013. In my opinion vote no and renegotiate. I'm also a fan of DPA, at least to force a vote and scare ALPA into reform. The fact that Moak was a 7ER guy making about $200k a yr at DAL and last year made $500k at ALPA makes me ill.
.
05-23-2012, 05:51 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
What's difficult to swallow here is you and the Union are pushing all this information about the length of time negotiations would take. This must be made on the assumption that our management is not planning to negotiate in good faith. If that is the case constructive engagement is a FAILURE!
We have been told over and over from you guys since bankruptcy that if we keep helping management out with all their issues it will pay huge dividends when we get to Section six. Well, apparently that is not the case since you are telling us management does not plan on being as accommodating as you guys thought.
This is something all of us should keep in mind going forward and during this vote ....oh, and please tell TO if he wants to compare our pay to any period in time it should be when we entered bankruptcy not when we exited just so he can get a better sound bite.
Very Dissapointed and no longer a supporter of Delta Air Lines!
We have been told over and over from you guys since bankruptcy that if we keep helping management out with all their issues it will pay huge dividends when we get to Section six. Well, apparently that is not the case since you are telling us management does not plan on being as accommodating as you guys thought.
This is something all of us should keep in mind going forward and during this vote ....oh, and please tell TO if he wants to compare our pay to any period in time it should be when we entered bankruptcy not when we exited just so he can get a better sound bite.
Very Dissapointed and no longer a supporter of Delta Air Lines!
Notice also the response from our reps. The ones that voted YES stated the standard talking points of the time value of money and best deal we could do stuff. The reps who voted NO said they did so because the TA does NOT meet the will of the pilot group as expresses by their survey. So I ask you, which reps are actually being reps? Which reps are being consistent with the initial promise of not sacrificing quality for expediency?
Carl
05-23-2012, 05:56 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
The biggest mistake anyone can make is to assume that management is your friend. We have made our pilot group into a business partner with management That is what constructive engagement is, it is not going to birthday parties and yucking it up in the corporate boardroom.
We have added value to Delta in the last five years and they have put value back into our pockets. We have compounded gains into our contract at a rate that vastly exceeds other pilot groups. If we stop adding value to the company, they will put us to the side and ignore us for as long as they can. Events of the last five years have shown that we can sit for years, in fact many years with nothing happening in old school Section 6.
If you are unsure about what happens when you no longer are a business partner look what happened to Mesa (Freedom). As soon as they got on the bad side of Delta they went Scarface on them, they ended up in bankruptcy.
Here are the returns (both pay and DC plan) per year since bankruptcy exit:
2008 - 5.3% (average, some higher some lower)
2009 - 5%
2010 - 5%
2011 - 5%
2012 - 4% + 4%(TA) = 8.1% compounded
2013 - 8.5% (TA)
2014 - 4% (TA)
2015 - 3% (TA)
Quick, one of you financial gurus do a compounded return on that and let me know what you come up with.
We have added value to Delta in the last five years and they have put value back into our pockets. We have compounded gains into our contract at a rate that vastly exceeds other pilot groups. If we stop adding value to the company, they will put us to the side and ignore us for as long as they can. Events of the last five years have shown that we can sit for years, in fact many years with nothing happening in old school Section 6.
If you are unsure about what happens when you no longer are a business partner look what happened to Mesa (Freedom). As soon as they got on the bad side of Delta they went Scarface on them, they ended up in bankruptcy.
Here are the returns (both pay and DC plan) per year since bankruptcy exit:
2008 - 5.3% (average, some higher some lower)
2009 - 5%
2010 - 5%
2011 - 5%
2012 - 4% + 4%(TA) = 8.1% compounded
2013 - 8.5% (TA)
2014 - 4% (TA)
2015 - 3% (TA)
Quick, one of you financial gurus do a compounded return on that and let me know what you come up with.
You're asking guys who've just had a chance to look at the deal to analyze it dispassionately. You and the other ALPA guys have had a lot longer to look at it and come to a realization. The best thing you and the other spin doctors can do is shut up and let the dust settle.
My rep had some interesting points and with some of the smart number guys on here many will reach an informed decision. They are battling the same problem I have been. I'm mad that I didn't get everything I wanted - childish isn't it.
ALPA got what it deserves with this response since they once again mushroomed the membership. So, when something that is complex and doesn't have the wow factor in section 3 hits the streets, it's gonna go splat.
So once again, stop talking reasonably here for a while, continue to lurk and report. I foresee we will eventually calm down enough to realize this may not be a complete turd.
05-23-2012, 06:02 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Here's a fact. With this TA Delta pilots will cost about $700 million per year more than the same sized UAL pilot group. They've been in Section 6 negotiations since 2008/2009. $700 million is a lot of "synergy."
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