Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-22-2012, 06:36 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
Ultimately if we give away fewer 76 seaters, I believe that it will translate into more mainline Delta pilot jobs. I don't care what the mainline fleet count is, I'm done giving the company any additional 70 seat jets.
05-22-2012, 06:38 AM
veut gagner ŕ la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Ive gotta run, but I do want to start filling out the... bracket?
I'll split it up anyway necessary and as always I think we need to look at worst case scenario and exactly what the production balance language is.
Still, I have to say any 51+ seater over 255 is a no vote for me so the retention of the 101 70 seaters is mind boggling. I'll say for me this is kind of an academic exercise almost just to see how bad this could be BUT it's worth the information and discussion points nonetheless.
I'll split it up anyway necessary and as always I think we need to look at worst case scenario and exactly what the production balance language is.
Still, I have to say any 51+ seater over 255 is a no vote for me so the retention of the 101 70 seaters is mind boggling. I'll say for me this is kind of an academic exercise almost just to see how bad this could be BUT it's worth the information and discussion points nonetheless.
05-22-2012, 06:39 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 403
I've stuck (more or less) to my New Year's resolution to stay off this board, as it was sucking the life out of me. And I don't really intend to change that, but I couldn't help but notice the incredible hypocrisy and double talk coming from many on here. Consider the following:
1. Guys like Carl complained at the time of the merger, that even though hourly rates went up, his pay went down because of the low reserve guarantee. Now that's been fixed, and guys are whining. For a guy currently on reserve and getting 70 hours of pay, moving the guarantee to 80 (assuming an 82 ALV), coupled with the contractual pay raises results in a 29% increase in W2 on 1/1/13! Not too shabby.
2. ALPA used to say DCI wasn't a big factor because they were only 15% of total ASMs. Guys on this board lambasted that and said its all about block hours; ASMs are irrelevant. Now, ALPA substantially increases the block hour ratio, grounding several hundred DCI jets, and guys say that doesn't matter; it's all about size. So which is it?
3. Guys wanted SWA pay on day 1. This contract achieves that, when factoring in the differential DC contributions.
4. Guys hated profit sharing when we traded pay to get it. They said it will never pay off, it's subject to bean counter manipulation, etc. They said SHOW ME THE MONEY. Now, ALPA negotiates a "modest" decrease in profit sharing, while still maintaining the top bracket (20% of all income above $2.5B goes to the employees -- think if AAPL had that!), and you're complaining.
5. Lastly, and most importantly, if you want to know why our "team" of professional airline pilots are not winning this game, look at your teammates. Every time Delta ALPA comes up to bat, we hit a single. Not sexy, the crowd doesn't go wild, but we hit a single and get on base. Next comes APA -- swing for the fences, but strke out. Then comes USAir -- swinging for that fence again, strikeout. Sadly, our brothers at UCAL appear to be doing the same thing. Even SWAPA. Because all of us took 4 giant steps backward, they ended up at the front of the line. They work for a company making record profits year in and year out, and now they are finally out front with a chance to LEAD the profession, and what do they do? Do they eliminate the need to buy your job with a type rating paid for by yourself? NO. Do they take an aggressive stance against management and get solid pay raises? NO. They aren't even close to what we negotiated back in 2001 for pay, yet they've had 38 years of unparalleled profitability. Talk about "we'll get 'em next time!" No, they have put themselves in neutral, waiting for us to pass them by, so they can get their cost advantage again, and use that to grow their airline.
So, while I am not at all happy with where the payrates ended up in this TA, when I look around at my fellow aviators, all I can say is, time to step up and help out. We can't do it alone.
1. Guys like Carl complained at the time of the merger, that even though hourly rates went up, his pay went down because of the low reserve guarantee. Now that's been fixed, and guys are whining. For a guy currently on reserve and getting 70 hours of pay, moving the guarantee to 80 (assuming an 82 ALV), coupled with the contractual pay raises results in a 29% increase in W2 on 1/1/13! Not too shabby.
2. ALPA used to say DCI wasn't a big factor because they were only 15% of total ASMs. Guys on this board lambasted that and said its all about block hours; ASMs are irrelevant. Now, ALPA substantially increases the block hour ratio, grounding several hundred DCI jets, and guys say that doesn't matter; it's all about size. So which is it?
3. Guys wanted SWA pay on day 1. This contract achieves that, when factoring in the differential DC contributions.
4. Guys hated profit sharing when we traded pay to get it. They said it will never pay off, it's subject to bean counter manipulation, etc. They said SHOW ME THE MONEY. Now, ALPA negotiates a "modest" decrease in profit sharing, while still maintaining the top bracket (20% of all income above $2.5B goes to the employees -- think if AAPL had that!), and you're complaining.
5. Lastly, and most importantly, if you want to know why our "team" of professional airline pilots are not winning this game, look at your teammates. Every time Delta ALPA comes up to bat, we hit a single. Not sexy, the crowd doesn't go wild, but we hit a single and get on base. Next comes APA -- swing for the fences, but strke out. Then comes USAir -- swinging for that fence again, strikeout. Sadly, our brothers at UCAL appear to be doing the same thing. Even SWAPA. Because all of us took 4 giant steps backward, they ended up at the front of the line. They work for a company making record profits year in and year out, and now they are finally out front with a chance to LEAD the profession, and what do they do? Do they eliminate the need to buy your job with a type rating paid for by yourself? NO. Do they take an aggressive stance against management and get solid pay raises? NO. They aren't even close to what we negotiated back in 2001 for pay, yet they've had 38 years of unparalleled profitability. Talk about "we'll get 'em next time!" No, they have put themselves in neutral, waiting for us to pass them by, so they can get their cost advantage again, and use that to grow their airline.
So, while I am not at all happy with where the payrates ended up in this TA, when I look around at my fellow aviators, all I can say is, time to step up and help out. We can't do it alone.
I am actually quite happy with the proactive engagement of our MEC and administration in ALPA. I wish they ran their committee structure the same way
That being said, there is an emotional element to all of this, and that. Has to be factored into the mix. We are humans, and we act on emotion. I got the chance to read through the agreement in the back of an MD88 last night. There is a lot of good in there. There is also a lot of give back. But, hey, it's negotiating right? I guess you can fall back to that except for that sticky human element of emotion. This contract should have been 99% give back to us, and it isn't. Quite the opposite. It seems to also fall short of where we wanted to be post contract. TO said that we would not sacrifice quality of expediency. We have. I have several more readings to go, but gleaned a few nuggets. Incidentally, I notice that you elect to use 80 hours, and the ensuing percentage as you example of pay increase, when indeed not all months will be an 80 hour guarantee, and those months are able to come with increased productivity to offset the increased pay. That is part of that pesky more give and take than should be necessary after enduring the contract we have been under for 7 years--and that is but one example.
I actually like the advances made in section 1. Again, there is more give on our part than I think is necessary. We are bailing the company out again with regard to RJs, but at least we are reigning it in overall. The JVs have good language there as well. Yet again we see "circumstances beyond the company's control". As T said, the company would likely get it anyway if necessary. The company shouldn't need to staff airplanes with other than Delta pilots in the event of a circumstance for which they. Have no control. Additionally, nobody has mentioned 1b 46, where once again we have snuck in some overweight corporate jets into the "exceptions". So much for that big coup. They break the contract, we catch it, they have to cease. Now it is codified. Human emotion interferes with my proactive engagement function in this manner.
The exceptions for Chautauqua and Shuttle America are troubling as well. There needs to be sunsetting here.
Speaking of DCI, I am not in favor of guaranteeing certain percentages of our classes for DCI pilots. This reeks of "meet and confer" and I don't like it. Big fuss is raised on the alpa boards of not bringing 76 seats to mainline, because they will be flown by pilots not yet hired, yet here we are negotiating for pilots not hired.
Lest anyone be accusatory, I am not for the increase in 76 seat jets. Management created this problem, and they should fix it, but they cannot without our help. I would like to believe that we're it not for the other jabs we receive when we should be receiving mostly return on our investment.
Section 3 is low. End of story. Profit sharing ,needs to stay the same, period.
Section 5. Great job. Hotel for CQ. EXCELLENT. Now all we need is hotel for new hires all the way through training and that section will be complete.
Section 7. Fail. To be sure, the are gains. 5 way split-good. Increase in vacation per day-good. Lack of 6th week, bad. Pay per day of vacation-bad, still. This could have been a great stride without setting off alarms on wall street.
Section 11. Sli pay at 85 hours encourages parking yourself in the boys club. My opinion is that these guys park themselves for QOL and don't need the extra money as well. But I digress.
Section 12. Duty period average. Another great gain that could have been without setting off alarms on wall street. 4:30 doesn't cut it. I will give a B for effort and getting it in there to improve upon, but it doesn't help out all that much. The reason for falling short on this is weak, IMO.
Section 14. Finally, we get rid of something which shouldn't have been there in the first place. Not a big fan of showing preference of one group over another, extra sick pay after your 19th year. Definitely a better section in this agreement.
Section 23. Such a detailed section that I want to attend a roadshow just for this. Most notably what stuck out to me was the LACK of reroute penalties. This company wants to be on time. That's fine. Then pay me for changing the layover I bid when I am running 10 minutes late for "circumstances beyond my control"
Reserve definitely better. No question. However, offsets in productivity nullify some of the benefit.
I reserve further comment and judgement for when I am better educated-especially scheduling, r&i.
Just the first of many read throughs on a 1:40 minute flight.
05-22-2012, 06:40 AM
veut gagner ŕ la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
via a pm, here is a take on this section 1 issue:
Scenario: 76 seaters can be "fast accessed" with a new narrow body category of B717/A319. No production balance on the way up. Get new NB and 76 seaters.
Now, the 76 seaters are here, to stay, and DC-9's (18) old MD-88's, A319, old 757 get parked.
"But there is a production balance of Mainline NB to DCI"
When does that snapshot start?
July 2014
two years to shrink, don't think it will happen?
Scenario: 76 seaters can be "fast accessed" with a new narrow body category of B717/A319. No production balance on the way up. Get new NB and 76 seaters.
Now, the 76 seaters are here, to stay, and DC-9's (18) old MD-88's, A319, old 757 get parked.
"But there is a production balance of Mainline NB to DCI"
When does that snapshot start?
July 2014
two years to shrink, don't think it will happen?
05-22-2012, 06:44 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
Why is everyone so surprised? All of you pay attention more than most and the writing was on the wall for the past several months (you could successfully argue years). The silence this past week left very little doubt in my mind it was going to be a POS.
The good news in all this is I believe it will be our first no vote at Delta Air Lines. I don't think the sales job will be successful. I personally hope it leads to new representation. IMO, we will not ever be successful protecting our jobs when our bargaining agent also represents the beneficiaries of our outsourcing.
The good news in all this is I believe it will be our first no vote at Delta Air Lines. I don't think the sales job will be successful. I personally hope it leads to new representation. IMO, we will not ever be successful protecting our jobs when our bargaining agent also represents the beneficiaries of our outsourcing.
05-22-2012, 06:44 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
via a pm, here is a take on this section 1 issue:
Scenario: 76 seaters can be "fast accessed" with a new narrow body category of B717/A319. No production balance on the way up. Get new NB and 76 seaters.
Now, the 76 seaters are here, to stay, and DC-9's (18) old MD-88's, A319, old 757 get parked.
"But there is a production balance of Mainline NB to DCI"
When does that snapshot start?
July 2014
two years to shrink, don't think it will happen?
Scenario: 76 seaters can be "fast accessed" with a new narrow body category of B717/A319. No production balance on the way up. Get new NB and 76 seaters.
Now, the 76 seaters are here, to stay, and DC-9's (18) old MD-88's, A319, old 757 get parked.
"But there is a production balance of Mainline NB to DCI"
When does that snapshot start?
July 2014
two years to shrink, don't think it will happen?
05-22-2012, 06:48 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Driving to work & Looking Left @ the Surf!!
Posts: 727
05-22-2012, 06:48 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: DL
Posts: 154
Tentative Agreement
Fellow Council 44 pilots, on May 14, 2012, the Delta MEC Negotiating Committee reached a Tentative Agreement with the company. This TA is the result of attempting to achieve an agreement in an expedited manner, but only if it benefited the Delta pilots. We, and the Delta MEC, spent the last seven days reviewing, discussing and evaluating the details of that agreement. Soon, you too will have all the details to help you decide how to cast your vote during the membership ratification process. We are going to give you the facts and explain the risks and rewards of the multiple paths before you, and then let you decide. We will support whatever decision you make.
The Delta MEC Policy Manual has some requirements that must be met whenever a Section 6 Tentative Agreement reaches the level of MEC approval. Here’s what you can expect:
1. Preparation of final contract language. That has already taken place and the agreement is posted on the Delta MEC website.
2. Explanatory road shows by the Negotiating Committee and MEC leadership. Those will be scheduled beginning after Memorial Day and will run for approximately three weeks.
3. A presentation of the circumstances of how the agreement was reached. You have already read in several communication pieces why we made the decision to seek an expedited comprehensive agreement, and we will be in the lounge to discuss this and any other issues you would like to discuss.
4. Section by section explanation of all changes. This will come in a series of Negotiators’ Notepads, which you should start receiving this week.
Expect details of the ratification window to be presented by the MEC Communications Committee. Expect a continual stream of information from the Negotiating Committee over the next week to ten days.
We will be in the pilot lounge, or available via phone and email, until the voting results are announced. We look forward to speaking with you.
05-22-2012, 06:54 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Simple, I called my union and asked a lot of hard questions about the TA. I also informed them based on their answers I would be voting no. Call you rep and talk to them. How much would you like to bet I am both correct and right on this. The company has to know that there is little chance of this passing as written. I have no doubt the small narrow body order will be inked before we vote. It will have a clause making it contingent on contract ratification because they have to get out of the 50 seat leases with Bombardier. The only way that is going to happen is with a large aircraft order. It could include the C series or be a combination of the A319's and 900 from Bombardier.
Sometimes you simply need to think. How many rumors have been posted on here that make zero economic sense to the company in the last 3 years. Yet pilot after pilot bites on them here.
The company stated it was going to place a order for 100 large narrow bodies and 100 small narrow bodies. The small order is canceled with no real explanation. You think maybe the company was looking ahead to the contract? Think maybe they knew that a carrot was going to be needed?
At any rate you will not have to wait long to find out. It will happen in the next 4 weeks.
Sometimes you simply need to think. How many rumors have been posted on here that make zero economic sense to the company in the last 3 years. Yet pilot after pilot bites on them here.
The company stated it was going to place a order for 100 large narrow bodies and 100 small narrow bodies. The small order is canceled with no real explanation. You think maybe the company was looking ahead to the contract? Think maybe they knew that a carrot was going to be needed?
At any rate you will not have to wait long to find out. It will happen in the next 4 weeks.
I understand what you are saying. You have figured it out by connecting the dots. But, the more you talk, the deeper the rabbit-hole gets.
If you are saying the company has to know the agreement has little chance of passing as written, then why did the negotiating committee accept it and then the MEC vote to send it to us with a recommendation to ratify it? Unless you are saying, the company knows it's pilot group better than the pilot groups union, there is no way this TA should have gotten out of the negotiating room. Yet, it's been endorsed by a huge majority.
Look at the last paragraph of the Chairman's letter:
The Delta MEC Negotiating Committee wholeheartedly endorses this agreement, and the Delta MEC has approved and endorsed this agreement. It is my recommendation that when the time comes to cast your vote, you vote to ratify the agreement.
If you are saying it's obvious that it won't pass (because its crap), how can my union be so supportive of it?
If they know something is up that is so good, that will make everyone change their mind about this turd, they need to get it in writing that it will benefit only Delta pilots before hand, so we can vote on what is real from the start. Otherwise, this whole process is a sham.
My name says it all (again).
New K Now
05-22-2012, 06:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,902
I am in agreement with Sailing.
Could this TA be salvaged?
Count the 70 seaters in the hard cap. Tighten the production balance date. Eliminate the force manure clause of section one. Restore the profit sharing from tier one. Make it 6/10/4/4 and add another percent to the DC, and that's to start.
Nu
Could this TA be salvaged?
Count the 70 seaters in the hard cap. Tighten the production balance date. Eliminate the force manure clause of section one. Restore the profit sharing from tier one. Make it 6/10/4/4 and add another percent to the DC, and that's to start.
Nu
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