C44 Recall
06-17-2024, 07:28 AM
#421
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,520
Thats dissapointing coming from you, considering you've been one of the more level headed people here.
I don't even like some of the 44 reps. But I like the TA1 crowd even less, and they are certainly working the propaganda to their favor. They've engineered quite an intersection, and some have proven quite "useful" to their efforts. If the mob gets their way, there will be a huge vacuum. And these clowns will somehow materialize as the only people with "experience", and you'll have the old set of the biggest management appeasers you've ever seen back running the show, and their biggest cheerleaders are chomping at the bit to give unfettered authority back to the chair to make their own deals with the company. I think you'll be quite surprised who comes out of the woodwork...I won't be.
The truth of the matter is since they've been gone, we've had two of the best contracts we've ever had (which set the bar of the industry), what the MEC can or cannot do is far more restricted (agreement MEMRAT, MEC approval of greivance settlements), survived COVID with no furloughs and even got long lasting contract gains we wouldn't otherwise have gotten (which the "hard chargers" voted against), the MEC has refunded a ton of money, with national about to do the same, and we even had a Delta pilot elected president in the biggest margin of victory ever (better lucky than good, granted), because we were finally able to move beyond the past personalties and the caricature that was our trademark leadership style for years. I have no idea why you'd want to go back to the old way.
I don't even like some of the 44 reps. But I like the TA1 crowd even less, and they are certainly working the propaganda to their favor. They've engineered quite an intersection, and some have proven quite "useful" to their efforts. If the mob gets their way, there will be a huge vacuum. And these clowns will somehow materialize as the only people with "experience", and you'll have the old set of the biggest management appeasers you've ever seen back running the show, and their biggest cheerleaders are chomping at the bit to give unfettered authority back to the chair to make their own deals with the company. I think you'll be quite surprised who comes out of the woodwork...I won't be.
The truth of the matter is since they've been gone, we've had two of the best contracts we've ever had (which set the bar of the industry), what the MEC can or cannot do is far more restricted (agreement MEMRAT, MEC approval of greivance settlements), survived COVID with no furloughs and even got long lasting contract gains we wouldn't otherwise have gotten (which the "hard chargers" voted against), the MEC has refunded a ton of money, with national about to do the same, and we even had a Delta pilot elected president in the biggest margin of victory ever (better lucky than good, granted), because we were finally able to move beyond the past personalties and the caricature that was our trademark leadership style for years. I have no idea why you'd want to go back to the old way.
That's quite a strawman you built. No one is lobbying for TA1 reps. I'm not even sure how you draw that conclusion. In fact, the only people even talking about TA1 supporters are people who are, I don't know why, contrasting the current reps to TA1 supporters. The current 44 reps hated the hats off campaign and said they'd likely never support anything like it again.
You and the reps have created a false dichotomy. These reps are absolutely not the antithesis of Moakies or TA1 supporters or whatever boogeyman you're trying to create. Have you even read the complaints on here? Not a single one is "these reps are just too hard on the company.." Not one.
You and the reps have created a false dichotomy. These reps are absolutely not the antithesis of Moakies or TA1 supporters or whatever boogeyman you're trying to create. Have you even read the complaints on here? Not a single one is "these reps are just too hard on the company.." Not one.
It's sad to see many of those former regional flyers coming here to say how much better their systems were at their regional than here. I've seen it posted time and again. Now here at the "mainline" they get to see behind our curtain and many are stunned at the absolute lack of transperancy, tech, and usable software for the pilot group. I have high hopes for the future as these people work their way up into the union and then perhaps you'll start to see some real changes. I think the old delta pilot mentality is mostly gone. Some strongholds are still there, but I bet tehy are wittled down over the next few years time. I say that in a good way. With fresh blood comes fresh new ideas and attitudes. We certainly needed a change here. I look forward to it.
Oops, I said this above and then saw your post. Didn't mean to repeat it.
06-17-2024, 01:50 PM
#422
Bent over by buybacks
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 777
06-18-2024, 10:30 AM
#424
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 930
Thats dissapointing coming from you, considering you've been one of the more level headed people here.
I don't even like some of the 44 reps. But I like the TA1 crowd even less, and they are certainly working the propaganda to their favor. They've engineered quite an intersection, and some have proven quite "useful" to their efforts. If the mob gets their way, there will be a huge vacuum. And these clowns will somehow materialize as the only people with "experience", and you'll have the old set of the biggest management appeasers you've ever seen back running the show, and their biggest cheerleaders are chomping at the bit to give unfettered authority back to the chair to make their own deals with the company. I think you'll be quite surprised who comes out of the woodwork...I won't be.
The truth of the matter is since they've been gone, we've had two of the best contracts we've ever had (which set the bar of the industry), what the MEC can or cannot do is far more restricted (agreement MEMRAT, MEC approval of greivance settlements), survived COVID with no furloughs and even got long lasting contract gains we wouldn't otherwise have gotten (which the "hard chargers" voted against), the MEC has refunded a ton of money, with national about to do the same, and we even had a Delta pilot elected president in the biggest margin of victory ever (better lucky than good, granted), because we were finally able to move beyond the past personalties and the caricature that was our trademark leadership style for years. I have no idea why you'd want to go back to the old way.
I don't even like some of the 44 reps. But I like the TA1 crowd even less, and they are certainly working the propaganda to their favor. They've engineered quite an intersection, and some have proven quite "useful" to their efforts. If the mob gets their way, there will be a huge vacuum. And these clowns will somehow materialize as the only people with "experience", and you'll have the old set of the biggest management appeasers you've ever seen back running the show, and their biggest cheerleaders are chomping at the bit to give unfettered authority back to the chair to make their own deals with the company. I think you'll be quite surprised who comes out of the woodwork...I won't be.
The truth of the matter is since they've been gone, we've had two of the best contracts we've ever had (which set the bar of the industry), what the MEC can or cannot do is far more restricted (agreement MEMRAT, MEC approval of greivance settlements), survived COVID with no furloughs and even got long lasting contract gains we wouldn't otherwise have gotten (which the "hard chargers" voted against), the MEC has refunded a ton of money, with national about to do the same, and we even had a Delta pilot elected president in the biggest margin of victory ever (better lucky than good, granted), because we were finally able to move beyond the past personalties and the caricature that was our trademark leadership style for years. I have no idea why you'd want to go back to the old way.
Can you name any specific TA1 supporters who you believe are orchestrating this? Most of the TA1 / Moakie type people who I know are actively running around trying to defend the C44 reps.
06-18-2024, 01:36 PM
#425
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2023
Posts: 161
We’re already going back to the old way with the current C44 reps. I have no doubt that they would be supporting TA1 if that situation were occurring today.
Can you name any specific TA1 supporters who you believe are orchestrating this? Most of the TA1 / Moakie type people who I know are actively running around trying to defend the C44 reps.
Can you name any specific TA1 supporters who you believe are orchestrating this? Most of the TA1 / Moakie type people who I know are actively running around trying to defend the C44 reps.
If you think that any of the people on the MEC today would support TA1, then you clearly weren't around for TA1 and that group. C2012, TA1, the 117 LOA, and the whole every day, all day cram down with that crew that was literally trying to sell off parts of the contract for pay raises. People'd say how they were the smartest men in the room, who did nothing but berate pilots for having opinions or that only certain people had the skills to lead the pilots. If you want to have an opinion, that's obviously fine, but if you weren't here, understand that you might not have the frame of reference for making that comparason accurately, and that takes away from your other, and maybe valid complaints. There's no comparason between the way business is done now and the way it used to be. If I called a rep in ATL back in the day, they'd tell me what my opinion should be. If I talked to the ATL reps today, they'd actually listen and offer to help me submit a resolution, and even help me with the langauge. They might not agree with it, but they'd help.
Talk to some of the people who were around for that whole bad deal. Open your aperture just a little bit. You can still be mad about the M7 thing, and maybe I'll join you, but put it on the shelf for 15 minutes while you get some history. After TA1 failed, there were recalls in every single council with a yes voter except the instructor group. If there was anything worth recalling people for, it was that, as there were serious, long term concessions, and part of the meager pay raise was paid by trading in profit sharing. But unlike the recent UAL recalls, none were successfull except for two secretaries that didn't even have a vote. The local vote for the SLC capatain rep was successful, but he quit before the big vote, and one other fo rep quit before the local council meeting. But that crew marshalled their impressive organization to make sure no one that mattered lost a seat, and replace the two they lost. This recall is about, what? The 44 guys voting to bring us the most expensive contract ever, as did 10 other reps and 4/5 pilots agreed, and UAL liked so much they did a cut and paste? Policy changes that required 2/3s votes, which meant that more than just 9 reps (12, which means some of the "strong" joined in)? By reps leaving anyway?
Lets all just be honest. This is about engineering the MEC elections in the fall and the one's that come after. TA1 people saw an opportunity to stir the muck a bit to open up some opportunties for themselves because they know they have the organiation to pull it off. Have one last gasp to say "see we are the smartest people". It's not about preventing anyone from running, or what reps did or did not do, it's about putting people in that will vote for their people that they've pre-selected. They are well organized. If you're part of that crowd, you know it. If not, word to the wise.
06-18-2024, 01:59 PM
#426
Bent over by buybacks
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 777
Lets all just be honest. This is about engineering the MEC elections in the fall and the one's that come after. TA1 people saw an opportunity to stir the muck a bit to open up some opportunties for themselves because they know they have the organiation to pull it off. Have one last gasp to say "see we are the smartest people". It's not about preventing anyone from running, or what reps did or did not do, it's about putting people in that will vote for their people that they've pre-selected. They are well organized. If you're part of that crowd, you know it. If not, word to the wise.
Just like the voted for the weakest, most company-friendly candidate in Nov 2022--who also turned out out to be a terrible leader.
They own their decision to back (and continue to back) DH. We don't need more of those kinds of decisions...Hartmann is essentially Moakie-lite, used the words "constructive engagmement" (a classic Moakie line) in an MEC meeting, and definitely a move in the wrong direction for Delta pilots after everything we should have remebered from TA1
06-18-2024, 04:26 PM
#427
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Position: 737 A
Posts: 1,031
Let's all just be honest. The C44 reps will vote for the weakest, most company-friendly candidate in November (if they don't get recalled), even if it's a Moakie.
Just like the voted for the weakest, most company-friendly candidate in Nov 2022--who also turned out out to be a terrible leader.
They own their decision to back (and continue to back) DH. We don't need more of those kinds of decisions...Hartmann is essentially Moakie-lite, used the words "constructive engagmement" (a classic Moakie line) in an MEC meeting, and definitely a move in the wrong direction for Delta pilots after everything we should have remebered from TA1
Just like the voted for the weakest, most company-friendly candidate in Nov 2022--who also turned out out to be a terrible leader.
They own their decision to back (and continue to back) DH. We don't need more of those kinds of decisions...Hartmann is essentially Moakie-lite, used the words "constructive engagmement" (a classic Moakie line) in an MEC meeting, and definitely a move in the wrong direction for Delta pilots after everything we should have remebered from TA1
06-18-2024, 04:59 PM
#428
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,520
06-18-2024, 07:54 PM
#429
Can’t find crew pickup
Joined APC: Jun 2021
Posts: 2,235
You can’t honestly think someone that orchestrated a recall as a vindictive measure against the FO REP in his own council that didn’t vote for him, was against all Covid LOAs that produced real quantifiable wins for the pilot group, and literally told the junior pilots in his council that getting furloughed was a right of passage and he wouldn’t try and save anyone would have been light years better.
06-18-2024, 08:20 PM
#430
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 930
The TA1 people want nothing to do with anyone and everyone after they got ejected, and they have long memories. They were the smartest people in the room, and they'd be happy to tell you all about it. They tolerated JM because the alternative, as they saw it, was worse, and maybe it was, but there was no love lost (they were the ones who actually recalled him I think in 2004).
If you think that any of the people on the MEC today would support TA1, then you clearly weren't around for TA1 and that group. C2012, TA1, the 117 LOA, and the whole every day, all day cram down with that crew that was literally trying to sell off parts of the contract for pay raises. People'd say how they were the smartest men in the room, who did nothing but berate pilots for having opinions or that only certain people had the skills to lead the pilots. If you want to have an opinion, that's obviously fine, but if you weren't here, understand that you might not have the frame of reference for making that comparason accurately, and that takes away from your other, and maybe valid complaints. There's no comparason between the way business is done now and the way it used to be. If I called a rep in ATL back in the day, they'd tell me what my opinion should be. If I talked to the ATL reps today, they'd actually listen and offer to help me submit a resolution, and even help me with the langauge. They might not agree with it, but they'd help.
Talk to some of the people who were around for that whole bad deal. Open your aperture just a little bit. You can still be mad about the M7 thing, and maybe I'll join you, but put it on the shelf for 15 minutes while you get some history. After TA1 failed, there were recalls in every single council with a yes voter except the instructor group. If there was anything worth recalling people for, it was that, as there were serious, long term concessions, and part of the meager pay raise was paid by trading in profit sharing. But unlike the recent UAL recalls, none were successfull except for two secretaries that didn't even have a vote. The local vote for the SLC capatain rep was successful, but he quit before the big vote, and one other fo rep quit before the local council meeting. But that crew marshalled their impressive organization to make sure no one that mattered lost a seat, and replace the two they lost. This recall is about, what? The 44 guys voting to bring us the most expensive contract ever, as did 10 other reps and 4/5 pilots agreed, and UAL liked so much they did a cut and paste? Policy changes that required 2/3s votes, which meant that more than just 9 reps (12, which means some of the "strong" joined in)? By reps leaving anyway?
Let’s all just be honest. This is about engineering the MEC elections in the fall and the one's that come after. TA1 people saw an opportunity to stir the muck a bit to open up some opportunties for themselves because they know they have the organiation to pull it off. Have one last gasp to say "see we are the smartest people". It's not about preventing anyone from running, or what reps did or did not do, it's about putting people in that will vote for their people that they've pre-selected. They are well organized. If you're part of that crowd, you know it. If not, word to the wise.
If you think that any of the people on the MEC today would support TA1, then you clearly weren't around for TA1 and that group. C2012, TA1, the 117 LOA, and the whole every day, all day cram down with that crew that was literally trying to sell off parts of the contract for pay raises. People'd say how they were the smartest men in the room, who did nothing but berate pilots for having opinions or that only certain people had the skills to lead the pilots. If you want to have an opinion, that's obviously fine, but if you weren't here, understand that you might not have the frame of reference for making that comparason accurately, and that takes away from your other, and maybe valid complaints. There's no comparason between the way business is done now and the way it used to be. If I called a rep in ATL back in the day, they'd tell me what my opinion should be. If I talked to the ATL reps today, they'd actually listen and offer to help me submit a resolution, and even help me with the langauge. They might not agree with it, but they'd help.
Talk to some of the people who were around for that whole bad deal. Open your aperture just a little bit. You can still be mad about the M7 thing, and maybe I'll join you, but put it on the shelf for 15 minutes while you get some history. After TA1 failed, there were recalls in every single council with a yes voter except the instructor group. If there was anything worth recalling people for, it was that, as there were serious, long term concessions, and part of the meager pay raise was paid by trading in profit sharing. But unlike the recent UAL recalls, none were successfull except for two secretaries that didn't even have a vote. The local vote for the SLC capatain rep was successful, but he quit before the big vote, and one other fo rep quit before the local council meeting. But that crew marshalled their impressive organization to make sure no one that mattered lost a seat, and replace the two they lost. This recall is about, what? The 44 guys voting to bring us the most expensive contract ever, as did 10 other reps and 4/5 pilots agreed, and UAL liked so much they did a cut and paste? Policy changes that required 2/3s votes, which meant that more than just 9 reps (12, which means some of the "strong" joined in)? By reps leaving anyway?
Let’s all just be honest. This is about engineering the MEC elections in the fall and the one's that come after. TA1 people saw an opportunity to stir the muck a bit to open up some opportunties for themselves because they know they have the organiation to pull it off. Have one last gasp to say "see we are the smartest people". It's not about preventing anyone from running, or what reps did or did not do, it's about putting people in that will vote for their people that they've pre-selected. They are well organized. If you're part of that crowd, you know it. If not, word to the wise.
Out of all of the factors that can be attributed to a successful present day contract, C44 isn’t one of them. They rubber stamped it with a “Yes” vote, and nothing more. Their company friendly voting history and disregard for our negotiating capital suggest that they would have also rubber stamped a far LESS valuable TA had it come across their desks.
Should the TA1 squad actually emerge (how many are even still here?), there is no chance that they will pass muster with the present day pilot group. This is a grassroots recall effort away from that type of thinking, not toward it.
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