Average days per month workerd at DL?
03-22-2023, 10:09 AM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Maddog FO
Posts: 653
OP here. I really appreciate all of the replies and all of the insight. It's helpful. Thank you!
I'm not looking for strictly new hire data. I'm trying to see if anyone knows of an objective data source like MIT's Airline Data Project or similar (perhaps DALPA data) that provides an average number of days worked per month for a Delta pilot (or probably even better: the median or mode). For example, the Airline Data Project says that in 2018 the average Delta pilot blocked 40.6 hours per month while the average SWA pilot blocked 53.1 hours per month. I realize with so many fleet types that maybe it'd be a more accurate reflection if any kind of average days/mo figure was broken down by fleet but I'm just looking for something that can shed some light on what is really true.
At SWA, it seems to be a widely held belief that pilots at "The Big 3" work more days per month across the board than we do. That then becomes a rationalization for accepting lower pay per credit unit ("TFP" in our case) than we might otherwise be able to achieve in this cycle of contract negotiations because, the reasoning goes, though we fly more hours per month than OAL's, we fly them in fewer days than pilots at The Big 3. Since Delta is currently the benchmark airline with your new contract, it'd be especially helpful to get real info on Delta's days/month worked.
For example, at Delta, using your current (new) contract rates over 30 years, with a somewhat conservative upgrade scenario, and crediting 996 credit hours per year, you'd be 62% ahead of a SWA pilot in career compensation on our current contract crediting an equivalent number of TFP (1140 TFP/yr). The way many SWA pilots react to that information (if they don't debate the credits per year or upgrade scenario) is, "Yeah, but all my buddies at Delta and United have to fly 16 (or 17, or 18) days on their line. At SWA, my line is 12 days. In the four (or 5 or 6) extra days I have that they don't, I can make more than they can make in a month." Or alternatively, they'll explain that Delta, United, and American can have their 16 day lines because they don't want to be gone away from home that much. Most of the SWA pilots I talk to when subjects like this come up believe it's simply a truism that pilots at The Big 3 work at least several days more per month than SWA pilots are required to. They'll also say you guys have PBS, which at SWA, is equivalent to kryptonite. But that's another story.
From the gist of the posts on this thread it doesn't seem like it's true that most pilots at Delta work 16-18 day/mo lines. But maybe the actual data says otherwise?
I'm not looking for strictly new hire data. I'm trying to see if anyone knows of an objective data source like MIT's Airline Data Project or similar (perhaps DALPA data) that provides an average number of days worked per month for a Delta pilot (or probably even better: the median or mode). For example, the Airline Data Project says that in 2018 the average Delta pilot blocked 40.6 hours per month while the average SWA pilot blocked 53.1 hours per month. I realize with so many fleet types that maybe it'd be a more accurate reflection if any kind of average days/mo figure was broken down by fleet but I'm just looking for something that can shed some light on what is really true.
At SWA, it seems to be a widely held belief that pilots at "The Big 3" work more days per month across the board than we do. That then becomes a rationalization for accepting lower pay per credit unit ("TFP" in our case) than we might otherwise be able to achieve in this cycle of contract negotiations because, the reasoning goes, though we fly more hours per month than OAL's, we fly them in fewer days than pilots at The Big 3. Since Delta is currently the benchmark airline with your new contract, it'd be especially helpful to get real info on Delta's days/month worked.
For example, at Delta, using your current (new) contract rates over 30 years, with a somewhat conservative upgrade scenario, and crediting 996 credit hours per year, you'd be 62% ahead of a SWA pilot in career compensation on our current contract crediting an equivalent number of TFP (1140 TFP/yr). The way many SWA pilots react to that information (if they don't debate the credits per year or upgrade scenario) is, "Yeah, but all my buddies at Delta and United have to fly 16 (or 17, or 18) days on their line. At SWA, my line is 12 days. In the four (or 5 or 6) extra days I have that they don't, I can make more than they can make in a month." Or alternatively, they'll explain that Delta, United, and American can have their 16 day lines because they don't want to be gone away from home that much. Most of the SWA pilots I talk to when subjects like this come up believe it's simply a truism that pilots at The Big 3 work at least several days more per month than SWA pilots are required to. They'll also say you guys have PBS, which at SWA, is equivalent to kryptonite. But that's another story.
From the gist of the posts on this thread it doesn't seem like it's true that most pilots at Delta work 16-18 day/mo lines. But maybe the actual data says otherwise?
03-23-2023, 04:02 AM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Position: 737
Posts: 316
Let's put it this way: try telling your buddies who are in an office all day + taking calls/emails all weekend, or guys working construction/maintenance/other manual work 9-5 that even though you were home all month and played with your kids every day and took them to/from school, played some golf, watched March Madness all afternoon, etc you had to "work"16 days last month because you were on call that whole time. See how hard they roll their eyes into the back of their head, if they don't outright hit you...
03-23-2023, 04:13 AM
#94
Roll’n Thunder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Pilot
Posts: 3,850
Thats funny, i've thought about it that way too when i've compared my gig to most of our friends and neighbors. Everyone seems to have one of these very nebulous flexible stay at home Zoom gigs, where they have to do some form of work all day from M-F. The last two weeks i've been on reserve, I have not been used once nor been given a SC. After dropping the kids off at school, it's gym or hiking then figure out what to grill the fam for dinner. I think our friends make more money than me on a W2, but I completely crush them from a QOL standpoint. My neighbors all driving off to work seeing me jumping on the trampoline...........
03-23-2023, 04:21 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,906
'Round my neighborhood, everyone is losing their minds because their companies are forcing them back into the office. A couple got ultimatums "come back or enjoy your severance." Fortunately, when I'm at home, I sleep in, so I don't have to see them pull out of their driveways with their coffee sippy cups on the roof of their cars.
It had to happen eventually, and I suspect if the economy gets tighter (and that's a maybe), some of the cost cutting will be cutting loose those who don't want to come back to the office or back on the road.
It had to happen eventually, and I suspect if the economy gets tighter (and that's a maybe), some of the cost cutting will be cutting loose those who don't want to come back to the office or back on the road.
03-23-2023, 06:38 AM
#97
Moderator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,823
As was stated above, I've rarely worked more than 15 days in a month. Most months, it's less than 12, quite a few months (especially on the WB), it was 0-9 days/month. Even as a NB guy on reserve, my average is probably single digits...then again GS/PB days have kept that number down.
**By worked, I mean actually put a uniform on. You guys can battle the definition all you want.
I see both sides of this. On one hand, some people are probably way more productive when they work from home, so I get it. On the other hand, in my other gig, we deal with people who still haven't come back to the office and it can be super painful! My GF works from home and probably gets more done by noon than the office worker gets done in a full day. They recently said she was going to have to start coming into the office, to which she's said that she'd have to quit. It's not really a threat/ultimatum, it's just the only practical solution as we live 2.5 hours away from the office and we're not moving. However, she only took this job because they told her it was going to be a work from home job (I guess the bosses changed their minds). She does an amazing job for them and her experience isn't easily replaceable in their location, which is likely why they're kicking the can down the road. She doesn't need the income or job and she already has a few other well paying offers for the taking...all work from home. It's a whole new world out there.
Just moved into a new neighborhood and have the same. Though it seems like quite a few have just said they won't go back, even if they lose their job. One hated working from home and couldn't wait to get back to the office. We even have a few DAL guys here, which is random since this certainly isn't PTC and is an hour from a base. Haven't met the DAL guy from across the street yet, but I'm guessing we'll be having a few drinks as some of the neighbors are pulling in from the office lol.
**By worked, I mean actually put a uniform on. You guys can battle the definition all you want.
'Round my neighborhood, everyone is losing their minds because their companies are forcing them back into the office. A couple got ultimatums "come back or enjoy your severance." Fortunately, when I'm at home, I sleep in, so I don't have to see them pull out of their driveways with their coffee sippy cups on the roof of their cars.
It had to happen eventually, and I suspect if the economy gets tighter (and that's a maybe), some of the cost cutting will be cutting loose those who don't want to come back to the office or back on the road.
It had to happen eventually, and I suspect if the economy gets tighter (and that's a maybe), some of the cost cutting will be cutting loose those who don't want to come back to the office or back on the road.
I see both sides of this. On one hand, some people are probably way more productive when they work from home, so I get it. On the other hand, in my other gig, we deal with people who still haven't come back to the office and it can be super painful! My GF works from home and probably gets more done by noon than the office worker gets done in a full day. They recently said she was going to have to start coming into the office, to which she's said that she'd have to quit. It's not really a threat/ultimatum, it's just the only practical solution as we live 2.5 hours away from the office and we're not moving. However, she only took this job because they told her it was going to be a work from home job (I guess the bosses changed their minds). She does an amazing job for them and her experience isn't easily replaceable in their location, which is likely why they're kicking the can down the road. She doesn't need the income or job and she already has a few other well paying offers for the taking...all work from home. It's a whole new world out there.
Just moved into a new neighborhood and have the same. Though it seems like quite a few have just said they won't go back, even if they lose their job. One hated working from home and couldn't wait to get back to the office. We even have a few DAL guys here, which is random since this certainly isn't PTC and is an hour from a base. Haven't met the DAL guy from across the street yet, but I'm guessing we'll be having a few drinks as some of the neighbors are pulling in from the office lol.
03-23-2023, 06:47 AM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,002
OP here. I really appreciate all of the replies and all of the insight. It's helpful. Thank you!
I'm not looking for strictly new hire data. I'm trying to see if anyone knows of an objective data source like MIT's Airline Data Project or similar (perhaps DALPA data) that provides an average number of days worked per month for a Delta pilot (or probably even better: the median or mode). For example, the Airline Data Project says that in 2018 the average Delta pilot blocked 40.6 hours per month while the average SWA pilot blocked 53.1 hours per month. I realize with so many fleet types that maybe it'd be a more accurate reflection if any kind of average days/mo figure was broken down by fleet but I'm just looking for something that can shed some light on what is really true.
At SWA, it seems to be a widely held belief that pilots at "The Big 3" work more days per month across the board than we do. That then becomes a rationalization for accepting lower pay per credit unit ("TFP" in our case) than we might otherwise be able to achieve in this cycle of contract negotiations because, the reasoning goes, though we fly more hours per month than OAL's, we fly them in fewer days than pilots at The Big 3. Since Delta is currently the benchmark airline with your new contract, it'd be especially helpful to get real info on Delta's days/month worked.
For example, at Delta, using your current (new) contract rates over 30 years, with a somewhat conservative upgrade scenario, and crediting 996 credit hours per year, you'd be 62% ahead of a SWA pilot in career compensation on our current contract crediting an equivalent number of TFP (1140 TFP/yr). The way many SWA pilots react to that information (if they don't debate the credits per year or upgrade scenario) is, "Yeah, but all my buddies at Delta and United have to fly 16 (or 17, or 18) days on their line. At SWA, my line is 12 days. In the four (or 5 or 6) extra days I have that they don't, I can make more than they can make in a month." Or alternatively, they'll explain that Delta, United, and American can have their 16 day lines because they don't want to be gone away from home that much. Most of the SWA pilots I talk to when subjects like this come up believe it's simply a truism that pilots at The Big 3 work at least several days more per month than SWA pilots are required to. They'll also say you guys have PBS, which at SWA, is equivalent to kryptonite. But that's another story.
From the gist of the posts on this thread it doesn't seem like it's true that most pilots at Delta work 16-18 day/mo lines. But maybe the actual data says otherwise?
I'm not looking for strictly new hire data. I'm trying to see if anyone knows of an objective data source like MIT's Airline Data Project or similar (perhaps DALPA data) that provides an average number of days worked per month for a Delta pilot (or probably even better: the median or mode). For example, the Airline Data Project says that in 2018 the average Delta pilot blocked 40.6 hours per month while the average SWA pilot blocked 53.1 hours per month. I realize with so many fleet types that maybe it'd be a more accurate reflection if any kind of average days/mo figure was broken down by fleet but I'm just looking for something that can shed some light on what is really true.
At SWA, it seems to be a widely held belief that pilots at "The Big 3" work more days per month across the board than we do. That then becomes a rationalization for accepting lower pay per credit unit ("TFP" in our case) than we might otherwise be able to achieve in this cycle of contract negotiations because, the reasoning goes, though we fly more hours per month than OAL's, we fly them in fewer days than pilots at The Big 3. Since Delta is currently the benchmark airline with your new contract, it'd be especially helpful to get real info on Delta's days/month worked.
For example, at Delta, using your current (new) contract rates over 30 years, with a somewhat conservative upgrade scenario, and crediting 996 credit hours per year, you'd be 62% ahead of a SWA pilot in career compensation on our current contract crediting an equivalent number of TFP (1140 TFP/yr). The way many SWA pilots react to that information (if they don't debate the credits per year or upgrade scenario) is, "Yeah, but all my buddies at Delta and United have to fly 16 (or 17, or 18) days on their line. At SWA, my line is 12 days. In the four (or 5 or 6) extra days I have that they don't, I can make more than they can make in a month." Or alternatively, they'll explain that Delta, United, and American can have their 16 day lines because they don't want to be gone away from home that much. Most of the SWA pilots I talk to when subjects like this come up believe it's simply a truism that pilots at The Big 3 work at least several days more per month than SWA pilots are required to. They'll also say you guys have PBS, which at SWA, is equivalent to kryptonite. But that's another story.
From the gist of the posts on this thread it doesn't seem like it's true that most pilots at Delta work 16-18 day/mo lines. But maybe the actual data says otherwise?
03-23-2023, 06:56 AM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,906
In my experience, the MIT data has always been quite wrong and purely based off of managements’ perspective of costing. As I said before, you’re wasting your time if you’re not getting the info directly from ALPA National Economic and Financial Analysis group. And they likely won’t give it to you unless you’re acting in some sort of official capacity, which I suspect you’re not.
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