View Poll Results: After November 1st, I'll be wearing the...
Single-breasted jacket
180
42.96%
Double-breasted jacket
239
57.04%
Voters: 419. You may not vote on this poll
Jacket Poll
04-02-2023, 08:00 AM
#171
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 764B
Posts: 467
Sterile cockpit, think I've seen that complied with, em, not once. Is it wilfully being disregarded, or merely falls thru the cracks in the spirit of basic pleasantries/cell phone glimpses/casual observations, what have you...
Whatever the reason, I'm sure we can all agree that it's far more consequential than the silly hat, and I've yet to see one APC thread devoted to it.
Whatever the reason, I'm sure we can all agree that it's far more consequential than the silly hat, and I've yet to see one APC thread devoted to it.
04-02-2023, 08:14 AM
#172
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,237
Sterile cockpit, think I've seen that complied with, em, not once. Is it wilfully being disregarded, or casually falls thru the cracks in the spirit of basic pleasantries/cell phone glimpses/casual observations, what have you...
Whatever the reason, I'm sure we can all agree that it's far more consequential than the silly hat, and I've yet to see one APC thread devoted to it.
Whatever the reason, I'm sure we can all agree that it's far more consequential than the silly hat, and I've yet to see one APC thread devoted to it.
The hat thing is not "normalized" because it's too new at Delta.....but keep pushing long enough and eventually management will have to accept it as a policy change even if they don't agree. The sterile cockpit will never be accepted because that is an FAA rule which will get, as a minimum, a debrief item on a ride along or check ride. Two different things but 2 wrongs don't make a right. Hold your head high on one of them(sans hat), and acknowledge willful disregard in both instances. Also recognize you put your career in jeopardy on one and not the other if things go sideways.
04-02-2023, 03:51 PM
#173
Moderator
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,820
This further illustrates that we as Delta pilots are our own worst enemy when it comes to hats. Why fling around a term like “willful disregard” for something that is so incredibly benign? Even management isn’t using that term or treating it as such.
I’d be more inclined to agree with your viewpoint about the importance of 100% FOM compliance if pilots actually did that. How many ever glance at their phone anytime after the preflight checklist is complete? That’s willful disregard. How many eat their crew meal at the same time as the other pilot? Also willful disregard. Both of those examples have some remote chance of impacting safety as well, unlike walking around a terminal without a hat on.
Many other pilot groups have preceded us in getting hat requirements removed from their respective FOMs — simply by showing up to work without them. There’s nothing stopping our group from doing the same other than ourselves.
I’d be more inclined to agree with your viewpoint about the importance of 100% FOM compliance if pilots actually did that. How many ever glance at their phone anytime after the preflight checklist is complete? That’s willful disregard. How many eat their crew meal at the same time as the other pilot? Also willful disregard. Both of those examples have some remote chance of impacting safety as well, unlike walking around a terminal without a hat on.
Many other pilot groups have preceded us in getting hat requirements removed from their respective FOMs — simply by showing up to work without them. There’s nothing stopping our group from doing the same other than ourselves.
There is a huge difference between 1. Occasional, innocuous “FOMviolations”, which when pointed out by another pilot will result in an “oops, you are right, sorry”, and 2. A giant middle finger to the company: “eff you, I ain’t doing it ever again. What you gonna do about it??”.
If you have a Fed on the jumpseat, and he points your examples out, are you seriously telling everyone you’d say “get bent”? No, you would cower in compliance. I’m fact, I’d bet you’d take extra care not to “violate” the rules.
Obviously a hat ain’t remotely the same, but when you start always violating sterile cockpit or eating simultaneously, regardless of the presence of a Fed, LCA, CP, or other authority, then you’ll have an analogy that works.
04-02-2023, 05:45 PM
#174
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 930
Im not wading into this absolute sh** show, but your analogy is seriously flawed.
There is a huge difference between 1. Occasional, innocuous “FOMviolations”, which when pointed out by another pilot will result in an “oops, you are right, sorry”, and 2. A giant middle finger to the company: “eff you, I ain’t doing it ever again. What you gonna do about it??”.
If you have a Fed on the jumpseat, and he points your examples out, are you seriously telling everyone you’d say “get bent”? No, you would cower in compliance. I’m fact, I’d bet you’d take extra care not to “violate” the rules.
Obviously a hat ain’t remotely the same, but when you start always violating sterile cockpit or eating simultaneously, regardless of the presence of a Fed, LCA, CP, or other authority, then you’ll have an analogy that works.
There is a huge difference between 1. Occasional, innocuous “FOMviolations”, which when pointed out by another pilot will result in an “oops, you are right, sorry”, and 2. A giant middle finger to the company: “eff you, I ain’t doing it ever again. What you gonna do about it??”.
If you have a Fed on the jumpseat, and he points your examples out, are you seriously telling everyone you’d say “get bent”? No, you would cower in compliance. I’m fact, I’d bet you’d take extra care not to “violate” the rules.
Obviously a hat ain’t remotely the same, but when you start always violating sterile cockpit or eating simultaneously, regardless of the presence of a Fed, LCA, CP, or other authority, then you’ll have an analogy that works.
Again, the company doesn’t even care about hats as much as a select few in our group do. You were one of the people spreading the rumor that you “heard” CPOs would be out in droves in March enforcing hats, immediately following a company / ALPA memo telling us to put them back on. Where was that memo and where was the enforcement?
Last edited by ancman; 04-02-2023 at 06:19 PM.
04-02-2023, 07:55 PM
#175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,017
Im not wading into this absolute sh** show, but your analogy is seriously flawed.
There is a huge difference between 1. Occasional, innocuous “FOMviolations”, which when pointed out by another pilot will result in an “oops, you are right, sorry”, and 2. A giant middle finger to the company: “eff you, I ain’t doing it ever again. What you gonna do about it??”.
If you have a Fed on the jumpseat, and he points your examples out, are you seriously telling everyone you’d say “get bent”? No, you would cower in compliance. I’m fact, I’d bet you’d take extra care not to “violate” the rules.
Obviously a hat ain’t remotely the same, but when you start always violating sterile cockpit or eating simultaneously, regardless of the presence of a Fed, LCA, CP, or other authority, then you’ll have an analogy that works.
There is a huge difference between 1. Occasional, innocuous “FOMviolations”, which when pointed out by another pilot will result in an “oops, you are right, sorry”, and 2. A giant middle finger to the company: “eff you, I ain’t doing it ever again. What you gonna do about it??”.
If you have a Fed on the jumpseat, and he points your examples out, are you seriously telling everyone you’d say “get bent”? No, you would cower in compliance. I’m fact, I’d bet you’d take extra care not to “violate” the rules.
Obviously a hat ain’t remotely the same, but when you start always violating sterile cockpit or eating simultaneously, regardless of the presence of a Fed, LCA, CP, or other authority, then you’ll have an analogy that works.
04-02-2023, 09:06 PM
#176
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: Wind checker
Posts: 773
Hardy. Retired O-5 here. I flew in pajamas and slippers at my last airline. If I could get away with jeans and an “I’m Gumby, damnit” t-shirt I would. The word you’re looking for isn’t military…it’s *********. There are plenty of those regardless of background.
04-03-2023, 02:35 AM
#177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 425
This further illustrates that we as Delta pilots are our own worst enemy when it comes to hats. Why fling around a term like “willful disregard” for something that is so incredibly benign? Even management isn’t using that term or treating it as such.
I’d be more inclined to agree with your viewpoint about the importance of 100% FOM compliance if pilots actually did that. How many ever glance at their phone anytime after the preflight checklist is complete? That’s willful disregard. How many eat their crew meal at the same time as the other pilot? Also willful disregard. Both of those examples have some remote chance of impacting safety as well, unlike walking around a terminal without a hat on.
Many other pilot groups have preceded us in getting hat requirements removed from their respective FOMs — simply by showing up to work without them. There’s nothing stopping our group from doing the same other than ourselves.
I’d be more inclined to agree with your viewpoint about the importance of 100% FOM compliance if pilots actually did that. How many ever glance at their phone anytime after the preflight checklist is complete? That’s willful disregard. How many eat their crew meal at the same time as the other pilot? Also willful disregard. Both of those examples have some remote chance of impacting safety as well, unlike walking around a terminal without a hat on.
Many other pilot groups have preceded us in getting hat requirements removed from their respective FOMs — simply by showing up to work without them. There’s nothing stopping our group from doing the same other than ourselves.
It’s like when people say, “You screw that up and you’ll be the one standing on the carpet in the CPO explaining yourself.”
Nope, I’ll fill out an ASAP. I’ll get an email
back probably saying “no further action”. I think the days of standing at attention, in front of a desk, sweating bullets like Cougar turning in his wings are over. If you stole something and lied about it, it could be a different story, but not for making a mistake.
04-03-2023, 03:43 PM
#178
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,525
Im not wading into this absolute sh** show, but your analogy is seriously flawed.
There is a huge difference between 1. Occasional, innocuous “FOMviolations”, which when pointed out by another pilot will result in an “oops, you are right, sorry”, and 2. A giant middle finger to the company: “eff you, I ain’t doing it ever again. What you gonna do about it??”.
If you have a Fed on the jumpseat, and he points your examples out, are you seriously telling everyone you’d say “get bent”? No, you would cower in compliance. I’m fact, I’d bet you’d take extra care not to “violate” the rules.
Obviously a hat ain’t remotely the same, but when you start always violating sterile cockpit or eating simultaneously, regardless of the presence of a Fed, LCA, CP, or other authority, then you’ll have an analogy that works.
There is a huge difference between 1. Occasional, innocuous “FOMviolations”, which when pointed out by another pilot will result in an “oops, you are right, sorry”, and 2. A giant middle finger to the company: “eff you, I ain’t doing it ever again. What you gonna do about it??”.
If you have a Fed on the jumpseat, and he points your examples out, are you seriously telling everyone you’d say “get bent”? No, you would cower in compliance. I’m fact, I’d bet you’d take extra care not to “violate” the rules.
Obviously a hat ain’t remotely the same, but when you start always violating sterile cockpit or eating simultaneously, regardless of the presence of a Fed, LCA, CP, or other authority, then you’ll have an analogy that works.
The hat should be optional
I'm still not wearing mine.
Not a word said
04-03-2023, 09:09 PM
#180
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Position: DL320A
Posts: 242
On behalf of the rest of us. I dont care about your hat.
Or your jacket.
Ill wear mine as required and as its sane.
Ill nod if we make eye contact. Ill wonder if you’re cool or hyper to fly with, then move on.
Or your jacket.
Ill wear mine as required and as its sane.
Ill nod if we make eye contact. Ill wonder if you’re cool or hyper to fly with, then move on.
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