How the AIP Happened
12-05-2022, 06:06 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2020
Position: Enoch Powell Enthusiast
Posts: 2,290
Why even vote? The tone of the OP seems to be, "line pilots don't understand the process and can't be trusted with this decision."
This process should be completely transparent. The idea that someone on the negotiating committee feels needs to leak info like this in order to manipulate public opinion really doesn't build unity. If the mediator said they will park us, then why can't they say that publically? If this deal is so great and the consequences of voting no are so dire, why isn't management saying it instead of fellow pilots? If our vote on this TA is as critical as the OP says it is, then maybe ALPA should have done a better job finding out what the pilot group actually wanted AND also made sure we had realistic expectations.
Personally, I think they gave us plenty of opportunities for us to tell them what we want in a contract, but I think they failed to give us much detail on what the contract was looking like. The AIP wording didn't help either. I saw a lot of vague language that will hopefully get fixed in the actual TA. The point is, we are all grown-ups and can read the TA and vote for ourselves. Using scare tactics to get us to vote yes is insulting.
This process should be completely transparent. The idea that someone on the negotiating committee feels needs to leak info like this in order to manipulate public opinion really doesn't build unity. If the mediator said they will park us, then why can't they say that publically? If this deal is so great and the consequences of voting no are so dire, why isn't management saying it instead of fellow pilots? If our vote on this TA is as critical as the OP says it is, then maybe ALPA should have done a better job finding out what the pilot group actually wanted AND also made sure we had realistic expectations.
Personally, I think they gave us plenty of opportunities for us to tell them what we want in a contract, but I think they failed to give us much detail on what the contract was looking like. The AIP wording didn't help either. I saw a lot of vague language that will hopefully get fixed in the actual TA. The point is, we are all grown-ups and can read the TA and vote for ourselves. Using scare tactics to get us to vote yes is insulting.
I un-ironically agree with your first two sentences.
How many are qualified to 1.) negotiate billion dollar deals 2.) vet legal language 3.) Make rational decisions based on partial information (unless all the negotiation meeting notes are released for review pre vote) 4.) Understand the RLA beyond a superficial level? (Strike 4 for myself, your experience may differ).
Specialization exists because the world is complicated. Demanding “full transparency” in this kind of negotiation environment is ridiculous. Even a used car dealership transaction is full of misdirection by all parties; somehow this is supposed to be different?
There’s a reason most pilots heavily rely on the recommendation of the negotiation committee and the MEC.
If that’s true, unless the proposed contract is especially awful (looking at you, Tumi United), most contract votes are a foregone conclusion. With a competently governed MEC, the membership vote is a mere formality.
The real influence exerted by the general membership is years in advance of contract openers with the election of the LEC officers and whatever influence the local yokels can have getting their LEC to put MEC officers in that they like. Something to think about now, before the NEXT contract gets spooled up.
(Just one cranks opinion. Not trying to jump down anyone’s throat here).
12-05-2022, 06:57 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,028
How it came to be an AIP is important. If you think it's wise to say "hell no" and send it back, and think that will help our cause... think again, and read below first. This is not TA1 from 2015. We're in mediation now, and at the mercy of the mediator's timeline. The MEC and then we, the pilots, will vote as we wish... but just know that if we reject what was offered, the mediator will not release us... they'll park us. Why? Read below. What will that achieve? Read below... and decide whether you think an alternative path forward will help any of us in the long run. If you don't believe this... then contact your rep who was in North Carolina. Regardless of how they feel, they'll corroborate that this is how it went down...
---
What follows is possibly one of the most powerful pieces ever written about a contract negotiation. Please read and forward as you can. It comes from a representative on the horseshoe who remains anonymous for now as most of these conversations were in closed session. After the last contract negotiation Delta pilots learned a negative lesson by rejecting TA1 and coming back stronger with TA2. The piece below contradicts that negotiating technique directly and plainly. Pay particular attention to the second to last paragraph and the sentence that begins, “the NMB told us they’d park us if we rejected this deal…”. In most rational minds that should end the discussion right there. The next obstacle is ensuring this AIP becomes a Tentative Agreement upon which Delta pilots will be given the opportunity to vote.
“2.4 billion deal. Largest in history of any airline. Mediator said she'll never let us seek self help with that kind of money on the table.
Substantially moves bar up for entire industry so another group can't undercut us and weaken our position.
Home run on reroute pay as he explained it to me. Plus said we made a lot of gains in section 23 with no concessions.
Wins with vacation and training but had to be phased in because of staffing. ( bull**** to me )
No change to positive space or commuting policy.
Retro number will be based off flt pay+ advance pay but should be north of 80k for captains. Biggest retro payout in history of airlines.
Retirement was a big miss. 5 th most important item per polling data
More Money put into growing fleets. ER and 717 left out.
Lots of other gains that will be important to some and not to others.
Also from a rep:
Over half the seniority list will get between 22-25% on DOS due to the banding.
Also, inflation to the amendable date is 15.2%, which was the rhetorical argument we were able to succeed with.
I know, we wanted it to start with a 2, also. 20+. This was the best we could get. The NMB told us they’d park us if we rejected this deal and they refused to allow us to negotiate any further until middle of next quarter. Meanwhile, we’d be losing $100M per month in value.
We have no path to any more gains. We took everything we could get. Honestly, there’s nothing left, and the NMB told us to take it or leave it, and they’d not release us because they consider the Company exceeded the NMB’s expectations. 45% gains in this environment, the NMB said they won’t help us any more.
---
What follows is possibly one of the most powerful pieces ever written about a contract negotiation. Please read and forward as you can. It comes from a representative on the horseshoe who remains anonymous for now as most of these conversations were in closed session. After the last contract negotiation Delta pilots learned a negative lesson by rejecting TA1 and coming back stronger with TA2. The piece below contradicts that negotiating technique directly and plainly. Pay particular attention to the second to last paragraph and the sentence that begins, “the NMB told us they’d park us if we rejected this deal…”. In most rational minds that should end the discussion right there. The next obstacle is ensuring this AIP becomes a Tentative Agreement upon which Delta pilots will be given the opportunity to vote.
“2.4 billion deal. Largest in history of any airline. Mediator said she'll never let us seek self help with that kind of money on the table.
Substantially moves bar up for entire industry so another group can't undercut us and weaken our position.
Home run on reroute pay as he explained it to me. Plus said we made a lot of gains in section 23 with no concessions.
Wins with vacation and training but had to be phased in because of staffing. ( bull**** to me )
No change to positive space or commuting policy.
Retro number will be based off flt pay+ advance pay but should be north of 80k for captains. Biggest retro payout in history of airlines.
Retirement was a big miss. 5 th most important item per polling data
More Money put into growing fleets. ER and 717 left out.
Lots of other gains that will be important to some and not to others.
Also from a rep:
Over half the seniority list will get between 22-25% on DOS due to the banding.
Also, inflation to the amendable date is 15.2%, which was the rhetorical argument we were able to succeed with.
I know, we wanted it to start with a 2, also. 20+. This was the best we could get. The NMB told us they’d park us if we rejected this deal and they refused to allow us to negotiate any further until middle of next quarter. Meanwhile, we’d be losing $100M per month in value.
We have no path to any more gains. We took everything we could get. Honestly, there’s nothing left, and the NMB told us to take it or leave it, and they’d not release us because they consider the Company exceeded the NMB’s expectations. 45% gains in this environment, the NMB said they won’t help us any more.
12-05-2022, 07:30 AM
#74
Trimming my beard
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: 7ERB
Posts: 241
The mediator did not ever say we would be parked
Actually what the mediator said was that there would be no further negotiating sessions scheduled and that our next meeting would be a status conference in Washington D.C. in late January at the earliest.
If it’s not a ratifiable agreement we shouldn’t accept it just because “well the mediator said”. The mediator also knows the reps speak for the pilot group and shouldn’t accept an agreement that wouldn’t be ratified. On the flip side, if it’s a ratifiable agreement then accept it.
At the end of the day the agreement should be either able to sell itself or not…not be sold with threats
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Actually what the mediator said was that there would be no further negotiating sessions scheduled and that our next meeting would be a status conference in Washington D.C. in late January at the earliest.
If it’s not a ratifiable agreement we shouldn’t accept it just because “well the mediator said”. The mediator also knows the reps speak for the pilot group and shouldn’t accept an agreement that wouldn’t be ratified. On the flip side, if it’s a ratifiable agreement then accept it.
At the end of the day the agreement should be either able to sell itself or not…not be sold with threats
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This. Those that publish overwrought analysis from anonymous insiders undermine the side they support, IMO, by implying that the group cannot analyze the AIP before them. Either these folks have a low opinion of the pilot group’s analytical and decision-making abilities, or they intend to inflame passions in one direction by making emotional posts in the opposite direction.
I’ll cast my vote for the higher expected value and I believe the rest of the pilot group will do the same. Emotional emphasis in either direction cannot be added to my time off or W2 and will therefore not be considered.
FWIW the incomplete facts before me right now make the YES vote appear to have a higher EV. Your results will vary.
12-05-2022, 08:05 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,535
Is it possible some/many of these QoL gains in section 23 could be nullified by slippery language? That is my concern. If this is riddled with language like the Covid april redib LOA then these “gains” mean nothing. On the surface the bullet points look great. But that’s not what we live under.
12-05-2022, 08:11 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,535
I'd say that is mostly accurate, but it also isn't the full picture. She didn't say we would NEVER be released, just that we wouldnt be based on this. i said right away she said there would be a status conference in late January most likely. That being said, let's say this supposal was a 90% solution (i'm making that number up for example sake), do you honestly believe it would be thrown away and they would start from scratch? I certainly don't. They also said, that if both parties agreed that we were close that they could tell the mediator we want to meet again, that part was left out of the synopsis. Let's also not forget that the mediators job is to get a deal done, she doesn't care what it is....she also isn't required to tell the truth. The company needs a deal, getting parked hurts them too....
12-05-2022, 08:18 AM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: Hoping for any position
Posts: 2,522
12-05-2022, 08:25 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 757 Left
Posts: 1,309
Thanks for sharing.
I trust the collective wisdom of the pilot group to decide if this AIP, that will become a TA, is good enough.
The question before the 17 voting reps is no longer “is it good enough?”
Their only question is “should the pilots decide?”
Publish all the final language and let the 15k of us decide. I keep seeing 9-8 tossed around. This is a clear 17-0.
Recall any knucklehead that votes to deny us MEMRAT.
I trust the collective wisdom of the pilot group to decide if this AIP, that will become a TA, is good enough.
The question before the 17 voting reps is no longer “is it good enough?”
Their only question is “should the pilots decide?”
Publish all the final language and let the 15k of us decide. I keep seeing 9-8 tossed around. This is a clear 17-0.
Recall any knucklehead that votes to deny us MEMRAT.
12-05-2022, 08:44 AM
#80
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Posts: 13
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