How the AIP Happened
12-04-2022, 10:23 AM
#41
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,998
The mediator did not ever say we would be parked
Actually what the mediator said was that there would be no further negotiating sessions scheduled and that our next meeting would be a status conference in Washington D.C. in late January at the earliest.
If it’s not a ratifiable agreement we shouldn’t accept it just because “well the mediator said”. The mediator also knows the reps speak for the pilot group and shouldn’t accept an agreement that wouldn’t be ratified. On the flip side, if it’s a ratifiable agreement then accept it.
At the end of the day the agreement should be either able to sell itself or not…not be sold with threats
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Actually what the mediator said was that there would be no further negotiating sessions scheduled and that our next meeting would be a status conference in Washington D.C. in late January at the earliest.
If it’s not a ratifiable agreement we shouldn’t accept it just because “well the mediator said”. The mediator also knows the reps speak for the pilot group and shouldn’t accept an agreement that wouldn’t be ratified. On the flip side, if it’s a ratifiable agreement then accept it.
At the end of the day the agreement should be either able to sell itself or not…not be sold with threats
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Absolutely true - we don't need anyone ranting "PEB, PEB" with guys on FPL trying to sway people. Lets get the NN's out and lets also see some robust Pro and Con Papers. With all of that said there is plenty of good stuff in this deal. Yes we can vote No and might get more within a year - it happened just like that in TA-1. But we can also vote No and drag this out another two years with minimal if any gain. I am strongly leaning Yes, waiting on more details, and just don't see the benefit of a rejection. This deal is so far superior to TA-1 and light years ahead of what Alaska got, and AAL and UAL rejected that I think the gains if any, will be so minimal and take quite a long time all the while we will be missing out on all of the QOL items.
My biggest beef with this deal is that it is greatly weighted to junior Pilots which as an older guy, I am OK with. Not much you can really do to help guys leaving in the next year or two but a sixth week of vacation would have been nice and would have benefited them immediately and even the junior guys eventually.
25% of guys were always going to vote No on any proposal. Lots of "street Creed" about boasting about their No votes. 25% of guys were going to vote Yes no matter how bad a deal is, no shortage of kool-aide, TA-1, case in point. The middle 50% will be the swing vote that will decide this like every other TA we vote on.
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 12-04-2022 at 11:21 AM.
12-04-2022, 11:18 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,535
Thank you for you humbleness and (if I dare say) you are certainly more knowledgeable about the "rules" than I am ...My vote is equal to yours (1 apiece) so personally when I know somebody has more insight about a subject, I try to ferret it out. Whether or not I listen is up to me
Now, I am going to ponder the words "minor tweaks". I agree, if turned down, no rewrite required and the process could go very, very quickly(if management would agree to the "minor tweaks"). Personally, I doubt those minor tweaks would happen quickly. I could see them happening, but I suspect some other carrier would have to take our minimum line in the sand and raise the bar. That will take time and the question then becomes reward vs TVM and QOL improvements in abeyance.
Since all that is conjecture, and nobody has a crystal ball, I will either come down on the side of FUD or FOMO
Thank you for fielding questions. I feel iAPC is a great avenue to disseminate info as opposed to 15K pilots contacting their rep's personally. It saws down the big trees, gives time for peeps to ponder, assess and weigh while waiting for NN's for the nuances
JMHO
Now, I am going to ponder the words "minor tweaks". I agree, if turned down, no rewrite required and the process could go very, very quickly(if management would agree to the "minor tweaks"). Personally, I doubt those minor tweaks would happen quickly. I could see them happening, but I suspect some other carrier would have to take our minimum line in the sand and raise the bar. That will take time and the question then becomes reward vs TVM and QOL improvements in abeyance.
Since all that is conjecture, and nobody has a crystal ball, I will either come down on the side of FUD or FOMO
Thank you for fielding questions. I feel iAPC is a great avenue to disseminate info as opposed to 15K pilots contacting their rep's personally. It saws down the big trees, gives time for peeps to ponder, assess and weigh while waiting for NN's for the nuances
JMHO
Everyone’s going to have their own take on it and thats perfect fine. I just think it’s important to be here and show that we are accessible even though I seem to be the only one on social media
.Just want to be clear too that I think the negotiators did a fantastic job slugging it out. Our beef is with management.
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12-04-2022, 11:46 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
Acting out of fear never does any good. Just taking the path of least resistance over the cliff. If you can't even refuse to accept something why vote? Have a vote to remove voting and expedite the whole process. Like elections I guess contracts will allow voting so you can feel like you did something and matter before going home and having things play out exactly the same. Maybe we can even get a little I voted sticker. Doesn't matter how you vote, just that you got to. Good job buddy. You sure were there.
All these guys tell you about losing stuff and offer up a strategy. For what? Losing? You can't lose if you never try I guess.
All these guys tell you about losing stuff and offer up a strategy. For what? Losing? You can't lose if you never try I guess.
12-04-2022, 12:27 PM
#44
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 73
As long as we're assigning assumed intent to words spoken by someone none of us know, I read that a little more optimistically.
"Hey you guys got an agreement after 3 years of knocking heads and right before Christmas no less. Let's take a breather, evaluate what you you got and meet up again after the holidays and see where we're at."
"Hey you guys got an agreement after 3 years of knocking heads and right before Christmas no less. Let's take a breather, evaluate what you you got and meet up again after the holidays and see where we're at."
12-04-2022, 01:42 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,609
Being realistic does not equate to fear. If someone tells you the winds are a direct crosswind gusting to 35 and the braking action is poor, it's quite rationale to not attempt an approach.
Multiple reps have stated we will get parked if this deal is rejected. With no concessions whatsoever and a boatload of QOL gains, I strongly believe they are being realistic and not fearful
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Multiple reps have stated we will get parked if this deal is rejected. With no concessions whatsoever and a boatload of QOL gains, I strongly believe they are being realistic and not fearful
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12-04-2022, 02:03 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,535
Being realistic does not equate to fear. If someone tells you the winds are a direct crosswind gusting to 35 and the braking action is poor, it's quite rationale to not attempt an approach.
Multiple reps have stated we will get parked if this deal is rejected. With no concessions whatsoever and a boatload of QOL gains, I strongly believe they are being realistic and not fearful
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
Multiple reps have stated we will get parked if this deal is rejected. With no concessions whatsoever and a boatload of QOL gains, I strongly believe they are being realistic and not fearful
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I can’t argue gains because there are plenty in it. But, like I’ve said numerous times there would be a status conference in January. It’s also in the company’s best interest to keep negotiating.
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12-04-2022, 02:06 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,765
We can shoot for tweaks, but it would be in a negotiation environment in Spring 2023, ratification after Easter. Let’s take a poll on what the economy looks like then and whether that helps us or hurts us. Just reading the prognostic chart…
12-04-2022, 03:12 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2022
Posts: 338
Where have multiple reps said this? Please provide actual examples as opposed to "this text someone showed me from their buddy who knows someone that was in closed door negotiations." Because 1 rep has definitely said the opposite.
12-04-2022, 03:37 PM
#49
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Capt
Posts: 2,049
I personally could care less whether this is true. I don’t need proof to confirm the real possibility that the mediator could take such a position. I certainly would if I were in her shoes for the very same reasons articulated. To discount such a possibility because proof cannot be provided is not rational.
I believe that not only should the merits (reward) be assessed, but also the ramifications (risk) of the vote outcome.
Emotion and risk assessment do not mix well.
I believe that not only should the merits (reward) be assessed, but also the ramifications (risk) of the vote outcome.
Emotion and risk assessment do not mix well.
12-04-2022, 03:48 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,237
So that I don't read too much into this... The opposite(Which is what you said) would be, " A rep said we will not get parked if this deal is rejected"
Who said that and/or where is it posted?
I am reading what you wrote literally...not trying to pick nits but as they say ..."words matter"
Last edited by Buck Rogers; 12-04-2022 at 03:50 PM. Reason: corrrect misquote
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