Prepare yourselves… 2023 AEs
12-08-2023, 03:02 PM
#6201
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
As someone who was here when age 65 happened. The hiring stopped within 3 months. Of course we were also dealing with a merger and recession. 150 pilots total were hired in 2010. That was it between March 2008 and and the first class in 2014. I’d call that about 5 years of stagnation. My point is raising the retirement age to 67 will stagnate everyone for 2 years. Don’t kid yourself. You get your extra 2 years in whatever seat you’re in when it happens. If you still retire at 65, then chances are you lost 2 widebody captain years to whatever seat you’re currently in.
12-08-2023, 03:03 PM
#6202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
Your retirement is consistant with the seniority system you were hired into. Your retirement was already delayed 5 years. Your retirement bennefits the ~17000 pilots on the list. Do the right thing and retire at 65. There are other flying opportunities everywhere. We all know this has nothinhg to do with 4th pilars or $. I will be able to retire at 58 and I've been here not nearly as long as you and will likely never see your seat and definately not for as long as you've been in it. You ignore the fact that a thousand additional pilots are not needed and countless mid career positions will be delayed. Who "CARES" about this pilot group? Not you.
12-08-2023, 03:55 PM
#6204
Bent over by buybacks
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 774
The whole ‘we built this airline and it wouldn’t even exist if not for us!’ insanity is just that though… insanity. They didn’t build jack sh*t. They (like the rest of the pilot group, as in every airline) are and always have been simple worker bees who exist to fulfill one singular function within this organization, responsible neither for its creation nor its direction, and only contributing to its continuation insofar as they repeat their one and only function. If they personally had never been hired here, another drone would have, and the entity would be in exactly the same place as it is today. The thought of that being true would cause one to wonder what all of their many hours and days and months and years spent away from home working actually meant though, and they can’t bear to contemplate the logical conclusion to that thought exercise: nothing.
12-08-2023, 04:13 PM
#6206
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,991
James,
You bring up a good point - age 67 would not be as bad as age 65 was for the Pilot group. I am mostly agnostic on the issue and am probably the only Pilot who does not have strong feelings one way or anonther on the issue.
Many have mentioned how there will be no stagnation since we have 2 year ER Captains - this is partially true. Many also mention that this will absolutely cause 2 years of total stagnation - once again partially true.
How can both be partially true you ask? Here is how - it depends on where one sits on the seniority list. Rapid upgrades for new hires will probably continue and might slow just a tad, but the 15-25 year Pilot will see his ascention to WB A or to senior NB A slow quite a bit. Its not the 2-5 year quick upgrades that will be affected it is the guys who were furloughed post 9-11 and who already yanked gear for an extra 5 years who will be mostly impacted. Then again these folks will also be able to stick around for 2 more years also, but to enjoy the same seniority with age 65 they will have to stick around or else leave in a more junior position.
Like I said I don't really care one way or another - probably because I am too old to be junior and too senior to be junior
but make no mistake there are Pilots who will be detrimentally affected by any change to the status quo. Will this be offset by the benefit to the Pilot group as a whole - who knows? But there is no free lunch, Pilots staying 2 more years in the most desired positions will definitley affect others waiting for those postions negatively.Scoop
12-08-2023, 04:24 PM
#6207
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,455
James,
You bring up a good point - age 67 would not be as bad as age 65 was for the Pilot group. I am mostly agnostic on the issue and am probably the only Pilot who does not have strong feelings one way or anonther on the issue.
Many have mentioned how there will be no stagnation since we have 2 year ER Captains - this is partially true. Many also mention that this will absolutely cause 2 years of total stagnation - once again partially true.
How can both be partially true you ask? Here is how - it depends on where one sits on the seniority list. Rapid upgrades for new hires will probably continue and might slow just a tad, but the 15-25 year Pilot will see his ascention to WB A or to senior NB A slow quite a bit. Its not the 2-5 year quick upgrades that will be affected it is the guys who were furloughed post 9-11 and who already yanked gear for an extra 5 years who will be mostly impacted. Then again these folks will also be able to stick around for 2 more years also, but to enjoy the same seniority with age 65 they will have to stick around or else leave in a more junior position.
Like I said I don't really care one way or another - probably because I am too old to be junior and too senior to be junior but make no mistake there are Pilots who will be detrimentally affected by any change to the status quo. Will this be offset by the benefit to the Pilot group as a whole - who knows? But there is no free lunch, Pilots staying 2 more years in the most desired positions will definitley affect others waiting for those postions negatively.
Scoop
You bring up a good point - age 67 would not be as bad as age 65 was for the Pilot group. I am mostly agnostic on the issue and am probably the only Pilot who does not have strong feelings one way or anonther on the issue.
Many have mentioned how there will be no stagnation since we have 2 year ER Captains - this is partially true. Many also mention that this will absolutely cause 2 years of total stagnation - once again partially true.
How can both be partially true you ask? Here is how - it depends on where one sits on the seniority list. Rapid upgrades for new hires will probably continue and might slow just a tad, but the 15-25 year Pilot will see his ascention to WB A or to senior NB A slow quite a bit. Its not the 2-5 year quick upgrades that will be affected it is the guys who were furloughed post 9-11 and who already yanked gear for an extra 5 years who will be mostly impacted. Then again these folks will also be able to stick around for 2 more years also, but to enjoy the same seniority with age 65 they will have to stick around or else leave in a more junior position.
Like I said I don't really care one way or another - probably because I am too old to be junior and too senior to be junior
but make no mistake there are Pilots who will be detrimentally affected by any change to the status quo. Will this be offset by the benefit to the Pilot group as a whole - who knows? But there is no free lunch, Pilots staying 2 more years in the most desired positions will definitley affect others waiting for those postions negatively.Scoop
S E V E N
Y E A R S
12-08-2023, 04:30 PM
#6208
Bent over by buybacks
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 774
None of them would have been cool with 67 instead of 65, back in 2008. But put them at the highest seniority they'll ever hold...and my, how things change.
But despite the wishful thinking from the geezers saying "it's close! we're almost there!" they are actually nowhere close.
12-08-2023, 04:31 PM
#6209
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,994
If you trust ALPA data (on this issue, I do), the vast majority of pilots do not support age 67. While possible, the idea that the vast majority would actually benefit by age 67 while believing they would not is highly implausible. I don’t let other people tell me what’s in my best interest because they simply don’t know. And since I don’t determine what’s in someone else’s best interest I also don’t tell them what to believe. I’m left trusting their own assessments for their own situations - as ALPA has done. That is what the union’s position is what it is, and while the minority who want a rule change are fighting the headwinds they are. It’s not mysterious- it’s data, and facts, and precedent.
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