Prepare yourselves… 2023 AEs
10-15-2023, 02:05 PM
#5331
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,237
LAX NB got unstacked up to like 60% or so BUT that was just the weekend after Thanksgiving day. You actually didn't have to be that senior to hold just Thanksgiving day off. Now if you wanted the entire Thanksgiving weekend off like most humans probably do...then HK is correct.
10-15-2023, 03:00 PM
#5332
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,594
1st world problem. Especially for a Delta Captain making 400k+. Imagine Thanksgiving in Gaza or Mogadishu for locals hoping to one day find their way onto US soil.
10-15-2023, 03:03 PM
#5333
Moderator
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,807
That's one category, in one base in one seat. Funny you didn't bother to mention the 73 side, or the 320/73 in ALL the bases I listed. It didn't do diddly squat. Seniors have the holiday off. Then they will GS, AND get the additional 5:15 same as it ever was (sans the add'tl 5:15)
At the time, I was out and about, and not able to just sit with a calculator checking other categories ad nauseam.
But now that I have more time, I thought maybe I missed something? (I didn’t) Just to refresh, this was your claim:
I didn't see any evidence of that looking at the most of the NB A wides. I looked at 73/320 in DTW, MSP, LAX, NYC and ATL. Dudes got unstacked right up to the cutoff line over the holiday. Lots of purple over the 23rd for sure. So no, not seeing it. What BES are you seeing this?
320 A first Coverage/“unstacking”:
ATL line 71%, Res 88% (Res Turkey day 92%)
DTW line 62%, Res 58% (Res Turkey Day 65%)
MSP line 73%, Res 68%, (Res Turkey day 82%)
NYC line 60%, Res 46%, (Res Turkey Day 46%)
LAX line 65%, Res 46%, (Res Turkey Day 46%)
73 A first Coverage/“unstacking”
ATL line 83%, Res 59% (Res Turkey day 75%)
DTW line 46%, Res 48% (Res Turkey Day 48%)
MSP line 97%, Res 51%, (Res Turkey day 56%)
NYC line 60%, Res 69%, (Res Turkey Day 69%)
LAX line 59%, Res 73%, (Res Turkey Day 73%)
As you can see, it’s not “just one category”. Only DTW 73 had coverage anywhere near the “cutoff”, with the rest being at least 60% for a line - some of them much better. The highlighted red is the most Junior pilot to be able to avoid coverage on Thanksgiving Day in each BES, if being willing to do Reg or Res to achieve it. 9/10 BES’s could have Thanksgiving off at 65%, and 4/10 at 82% or better. MSP had 97% being able to avoid coverage at all! “Purple” in both Reg and Res over the 23rd? Not all that much.
Absolutely false.
10-15-2023, 03:18 PM
#5334
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,594
You asked for a BES where we are seeing Holdiay pay affecting bidding, I gave you one. Mine.
At the time, I was out and about, and not able to just sit with a calculator checking other categories ad nauseam.
But now that I have more time, I thought maybe I missed something? (I didn’t) Just to refresh, this was your claim:
As you can see below, that’s just not true. The “cutoff line” for line holders avoiding coverage is top 50% of line holders, which typically is going to be low 40’s% BES seniority. In Nov, the first Line holder to get coverage was generally on Thanksgiving day - not so for Reserve, which is effectively never exempt from coverage, (except for the top couple bidders).
320 A first Coverage/“unstacking”:
ATL line 71%, Res 88% (Res Turkey day 92%)
DTW line 62%, Res 58% (Res Turkey Day 65%)
MSP line 73%, Res 68%, (Res Turkey day 82%)
NYC line 60%, Res 46%, (Res Turkey Day 46%)
LAX line 65%, Res 46%, (Res Turkey Day 46%)
73 A first Coverage/“unstacking”
ATL line 83%, Res 59% (Res Turkey day 75%)
DTW line 46%, Res 48% (Res Turkey Day 48%)
MSP line 97%, Res 51%, (Res Turkey day 56%)
NYC line 60%, Res 69%, (Res Turkey Day 69%)
LAX line 59%, Res 73%, (Res Turkey Day 73%)
As you can see, it’s not “just one category”. Only DTW 73 had coverage anywhere near the “cutoff”, with the rest being at least 60% for a line - some of them much better. The highlighted red is the most Junior pilot to be able to avoid coverage on Thanksgiving Day in each BES, if being willing to do Reg or Res to achieve it. 9/10 BES’s could have Thanksgiving off at 65%, and 4/10 at 82% or better. MSP had 97% being able to avoid coverage at all! “Purple” in both Reg and Res over the 23rd? Not all that much.
Absolutely false.
At the time, I was out and about, and not able to just sit with a calculator checking other categories ad nauseam.
But now that I have more time, I thought maybe I missed something? (I didn’t) Just to refresh, this was your claim:
As you can see below, that’s just not true. The “cutoff line” for line holders avoiding coverage is top 50% of line holders, which typically is going to be low 40’s% BES seniority. In Nov, the first Line holder to get coverage was generally on Thanksgiving day - not so for Reserve, which is effectively never exempt from coverage, (except for the top couple bidders).
320 A first Coverage/“unstacking”:
ATL line 71%, Res 88% (Res Turkey day 92%)
DTW line 62%, Res 58% (Res Turkey Day 65%)
MSP line 73%, Res 68%, (Res Turkey day 82%)
NYC line 60%, Res 46%, (Res Turkey Day 46%)
LAX line 65%, Res 46%, (Res Turkey Day 46%)
73 A first Coverage/“unstacking”
ATL line 83%, Res 59% (Res Turkey day 75%)
DTW line 46%, Res 48% (Res Turkey Day 48%)
MSP line 97%, Res 51%, (Res Turkey day 56%)
NYC line 60%, Res 69%, (Res Turkey Day 69%)
LAX line 59%, Res 73%, (Res Turkey Day 73%)
As you can see, it’s not “just one category”. Only DTW 73 had coverage anywhere near the “cutoff”, with the rest being at least 60% for a line - some of them much better. The highlighted red is the most Junior pilot to be able to avoid coverage on Thanksgiving Day in each BES, if being willing to do Reg or Res to achieve it. 9/10 BES’s could have Thanksgiving off at 65%, and 4/10 at 82% or better. MSP had 97% being able to avoid coverage at all! “Purple” in both Reg and Res over the 23rd? Not all that much.
Absolutely false.
10-15-2023, 04:42 PM
#5335
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2021
Posts: 220
Curious how differently coverage looked in Nov 2022?
10-15-2023, 04:56 PM
#5336
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,016
Still wasting life away in a crashpad. Once you see a couple friends die around your own age, outlook changes unless 65 and wanting to work until death.
10-15-2023, 05:02 PM
#5337
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Middle Seat
Posts: 1,228
You asked for a BES where we are seeing Holdiay pay affecting bidding, I gave you one. Mine.
At the time, I was out and about, and not able to just sit with a calculator checking other categories ad nauseam.
But now that I have more time, I thought maybe I missed something? (I didn’t) Just to refresh, this was your claim:
As you can see below, that’s just not true. The “cutoff line” for line holders avoiding coverage is top 50% of line holders, which typically is going to be low 40’s% BES seniority. In Nov, the first Line holder to get coverage was generally on Thanksgiving day - not so for Reserve, which is effectively never exempt from coverage, (except for the top couple bidders).
320 A first Coverage/“unstacking”:
ATL line 71%, Res 88% (Res Turkey day 92%)
DTW line 62%, Res 58% (Res Turkey Day 65%)
MSP line 73%, Res 68%, (Res Turkey day 82%)
NYC line 60%, Res 46%, (Res Turkey Day 46%)
LAX line 65%, Res 46%, (Res Turkey Day 46%)
73 A first Coverage/“unstacking”
ATL line 83%, Res 59% (Res Turkey day 75%)
DTW line 46%, Res 48% (Res Turkey Day 48%)
MSP line 97%, Res 51%, (Res Turkey day 56%)
NYC line 60%, Res 69%, (Res Turkey Day 69%)
LAX line 59%, Res 73%, (Res Turkey Day 73%)
As you can see, it’s not “just one category”. Only DTW 73 had coverage anywhere near the “cutoff”, with the rest being at least 60% for a line - some of them much better. The highlighted red is the most Junior pilot to be able to avoid coverage on Thanksgiving Day in each BES, if being willing to do Reg or Res to achieve it. 9/10 BES’s could have Thanksgiving off at 65%, and 4/10 at 82% or better. MSP had 97% being able to avoid coverage at all! “Purple” in both Reg and Res over the 23rd? Not all that much.
Absolutely false.
At the time, I was out and about, and not able to just sit with a calculator checking other categories ad nauseam.
But now that I have more time, I thought maybe I missed something? (I didn’t) Just to refresh, this was your claim:
As you can see below, that’s just not true. The “cutoff line” for line holders avoiding coverage is top 50% of line holders, which typically is going to be low 40’s% BES seniority. In Nov, the first Line holder to get coverage was generally on Thanksgiving day - not so for Reserve, which is effectively never exempt from coverage, (except for the top couple bidders).
320 A first Coverage/“unstacking”:
ATL line 71%, Res 88% (Res Turkey day 92%)
DTW line 62%, Res 58% (Res Turkey Day 65%)
MSP line 73%, Res 68%, (Res Turkey day 82%)
NYC line 60%, Res 46%, (Res Turkey Day 46%)
LAX line 65%, Res 46%, (Res Turkey Day 46%)
73 A first Coverage/“unstacking”
ATL line 83%, Res 59% (Res Turkey day 75%)
DTW line 46%, Res 48% (Res Turkey Day 48%)
MSP line 97%, Res 51%, (Res Turkey day 56%)
NYC line 60%, Res 69%, (Res Turkey Day 69%)
LAX line 59%, Res 73%, (Res Turkey Day 73%)
As you can see, it’s not “just one category”. Only DTW 73 had coverage anywhere near the “cutoff”, with the rest being at least 60% for a line - some of them much better. The highlighted red is the most Junior pilot to be able to avoid coverage on Thanksgiving Day in each BES, if being willing to do Reg or Res to achieve it. 9/10 BES’s could have Thanksgiving off at 65%, and 4/10 at 82% or better. MSP had 97% being able to avoid coverage at all! “Purple” in both Reg and Res over the 23rd? Not all that much.
Absolutely false.
Unfortunately, it’s another thing that HK will conveniently ignore.
10-15-2023, 05:11 PM
#5338
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 861
Fangs beat me to posting numbers, but then I also got to wondering about the actual comparison with years prior. I did ATL just for fun, looking at the Wide Reports for both years and doing a rough seniority calculation by using the page of the report compared to the total amount of pages. Keep in mind that I was only looking at pilots getting unstacked on Thanksgiving day. The results are interesting, almost across the board REG saw a definite improvement of coverage awards (unstacking) going more junior. On the other hand, RES seems to mostly have gone the other way. Overall even factoring the change in RES bidding behavior, it's possible that Holiday Pay has had a change for the better in most of the ATL A categories. 
That's why I'm glad they always cleared us tankers off debrief early in Vegas after the vul.....
10-15-2023, 05:22 PM
#5340
Moderator
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,807
Fair question. I don't have all the various BES wide reports to do that math. I can only do ATL 320 A. In fairness, other categories may show something different.
Nov 2022 320 A Coverage/"unstacking" started at:
ATL Line 47%, Res, 66% (Res Turkey Day, 73%)
So a "gain" of 24%, 22%, and 19%. One BES data point is not a trend, however. And it may not all be due to "Holiday Pay", but that is the one quantifiable variable that is different.
*Edit* I guess I was counting/typing when myrkridia was posting his own table, which tracks with this. I think the +-1% differences are in rounding differences. I did my original math by leveraging Curly's excellent website (widgetseniority.com), and the math for this post was from an actual count of last year's report.
Nov 2022 320 A Coverage/"unstacking" started at:
ATL Line 47%, Res, 66% (Res Turkey Day, 73%)
So a "gain" of 24%, 22%, and 19%. One BES data point is not a trend, however. And it may not all be due to "Holiday Pay", but that is the one quantifiable variable that is different.
*Edit* I guess I was counting/typing when myrkridia was posting his own table, which tracks with this. I think the +-1% differences are in rounding differences. I did my original math by leveraging Curly's excellent website (widgetseniority.com), and the math for this post was from an actual count of last year's report.
Last edited by FangsF15; 10-15-2023 at 05:32 PM.
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