Prepare yourselves… 2023 AEs
08-20-2023, 06:08 AM
#4371
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Position: NYC 7ERA
Posts: 2,054
I think the most valuable part of being a FO was not the flying experience, beyond the 2 years of "this is how 121 is different/better/worse than my old flying" I had about 6,000 hours pre delta, granted not 121, but still fairly experienced.. Over 10,000 if you counted helicopters which they didn't at the time.
The real value was seeing awesome Captains who I try to emulate, and the "oh, hell no, if I find myself being that guy, it's time to really reevaluate myself" guys.
I still flub some crew management/interaction things up. There's always things I could have done better.
But I remember things I learned from now retired ER Captains on how to deal with X Y and Z, and more importantly how to treat crews well. And deal with FAs who aren't being reasonable, without shutting out the rest of the crew.
One Captain, wasn't his fini flight, but was probably the last international trip. Holiday weekend. Europe. Loads were decent so me and the other F/O had our wives come. His wife was on a purchased ticket. We were both on new hire, or just off of it. Wouldn't let us pay for anything. "Just try to be that guy who remembers what it was like to take a huge paycut to start a new job, and don't be a total cheapskate... Buy the new guys Coffee, Beer, a dinner.. Grab the FAs a box of Pad Du Chocolat". Granted with the current NB schedules there's not a lot of beer/dinner, but I always make sure to try to at least get the new guys something. Because the awesome Captains I had when I was a new hire did it for me. If I'm on a GS, even if the other guy is senior to me, I try to buy food or drinks.I was basically taught, granted back when GSs weren't like they are, and you had to be a top 5%er living in base to roll thunder, that while not a widespread tradition, it was was greatly appreciated. There was a time when me (7ER FO) and the Captain, were both bought off our second back to back MEX trip, and then both got it as a greenslip the next day (even more hilarious is we were crashpad roommates) basically made a comedy of "you buy, no YOU buy".. We ended up going to the most fancy steakhouse we could find in MEX, got the biggest steak and the best wine, and had a great time.
There's also the guy we referred to as "Captain Happy" and if I ever find myself even remotely doing anything that he would have done, I immediately reevaluate my choices.
I don't regret going NB-A from ER FO, but as of today, I'd actually be more senior as an ER Captain than 320 Captain in NYC (not much, but like 81 vs 83%) but the bottom of the ER Bid pack and things that go out on RES are much more "gentlemanly" than the bottom of the 320 bid pack..
That, and no LGA.
The real value was seeing awesome Captains who I try to emulate, and the "oh, hell no, if I find myself being that guy, it's time to really reevaluate myself" guys.
I still flub some crew management/interaction things up. There's always things I could have done better.
But I remember things I learned from now retired ER Captains on how to deal with X Y and Z, and more importantly how to treat crews well. And deal with FAs who aren't being reasonable, without shutting out the rest of the crew.
One Captain, wasn't his fini flight, but was probably the last international trip. Holiday weekend. Europe. Loads were decent so me and the other F/O had our wives come. His wife was on a purchased ticket. We were both on new hire, or just off of it. Wouldn't let us pay for anything. "Just try to be that guy who remembers what it was like to take a huge paycut to start a new job, and don't be a total cheapskate... Buy the new guys Coffee, Beer, a dinner.. Grab the FAs a box of Pad Du Chocolat". Granted with the current NB schedules there's not a lot of beer/dinner, but I always make sure to try to at least get the new guys something. Because the awesome Captains I had when I was a new hire did it for me. If I'm on a GS, even if the other guy is senior to me, I try to buy food or drinks.I was basically taught, granted back when GSs weren't like they are, and you had to be a top 5%er living in base to roll thunder, that while not a widespread tradition, it was was greatly appreciated. There was a time when me (7ER FO) and the Captain, were both bought off our second back to back MEX trip, and then both got it as a greenslip the next day (even more hilarious is we were crashpad roommates) basically made a comedy of "you buy, no YOU buy".. We ended up going to the most fancy steakhouse we could find in MEX, got the biggest steak and the best wine, and had a great time.
There's also the guy we referred to as "Captain Happy" and if I ever find myself even remotely doing anything that he would have done, I immediately reevaluate my choices.
I don't regret going NB-A from ER FO, but as of today, I'd actually be more senior as an ER Captain than 320 Captain in NYC (not much, but like 81 vs 83%) but the bottom of the ER Bid pack and things that go out on RES are much more "gentlemanly" than the bottom of the 320 bid pack..
That, and no LGA.
08-20-2023, 06:37 AM
#4372
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,991
That's a good thing. Maybe I was just unlucky.
A few things off the top of my head that happened as an ATL 73N B:
First trip off OE:
We take off, and it's pretty cold in the flight deck. I look up at the temp selectors and notice that the flight deck temp controller is at full cold. I reach up and put it to about 11 o'clock. The captain immediately reaches up, twists it full cold, and says, "I run my flight deck cold!" OK. A little odd. I get my puffy Columbia jacket out of my bag, put it on, and never touched the temperature controllers again for the rest of the trip. No big deal, really.
Different day, different captain:
We're climbing to an intermediate altitude, maybe 240. We get a clearance to continue the climb to 350. I read the clearance back. The captain says, "350," but he doesn't scroll it into the altitude selection window. I wait 5 or 10 seconds, and he turns to his iPad to start looking something up. I point to the altitude selection window and say, "did you want to put 350 here?" The captain snaps, "I'll get to it when I'm ready!" He then waits until we're 1000 before level off to put the higher altitude in the altitude selection window.
Later that same leg, we're getting slam dunked, and the captain doesn't seem to be doing anything about it. I say, "I think we're high and fast." The captain says, "we're fine." At 1500 AFE we're doing a little over 2000 FPM. I say, "sink rate." The captain initially eases the rate of descent, then he asks, "did the airplane say that, or was it you?" I say, "it was me." He mutters something to himself, pushes the nose over. Four red on the PAPI, GPWS shouting at us, he continues to a landing, touches down, and immediately goes max manual braking to make the first turnoff.
Different day, different captain:
BHM to ATL leg. Widget WX shows a wall of severe TS between BHM and ATL. I turn my iPad so that the captain can see it and ask, "what's the plan for the weather between here and there?" He says, "we'll use the radar and pick our way through." We take off, and the weather looks terrible on the radar. I say, "that looks pretty bad." The captain says nothing, reaches up and deselects the radar on his side. While I'm trying to figure out what to say, ATC puts us into holding. ATC tells us, "no one is getting into ATL right now."
I look at the flight plan, do some quick back of the napkin math, and come up with what I think is our minimum legal fuel before divert. The captain doesn't seem to be doing any of this. I say, "I've got my number." He says, "what?" I say, "what do you think is a good fuel number before we need to divert?" Captain does some math, and comes up with a number 2000 pounds below mine. I say, "I came up with a number 2000 pounds higher." He says, "we're using mine."
I explain in detail how I came up with my number, and the captain says, "we're using mine." We keep holding until we get to my number. I tell the captain that I think we need to go to BHM. He says we are waiting another 2000 pounds, and if we divert, we're going to CHS. I tell him that CHS is through the weather, and we are at the minimum fuel to fly to ATL, go missed, and still make our alternate. I think we should turn around and go to BHM.
We get cleared to another fix closer to the field. As we are approaching the fix, ATC puts us into holding again. I tell the captain that we need to go to BHM. He says, "no." I key the mic and tell ATC that we need to divert to BHM. ATC clears us through the weather for the approach. It's Mr. Toad's Wild Ride all the way to the field. We touch down with 4.1.
There was an AE closing the next day. I bid every ATL captain spot in pay rate order, and they gave me 73N A.
If I knew the culture on the ATL 350 is like it was on the NYC 7ER, then I'd make the switch in a heartbeat. If I knew the culture on the ATL 350 is like it was when I was an ATL 73N B, then I'd stay in the left seat until I could upgrade into the 330 or 350. Most responses seem to think I'm out to lunch, so maybe I'll just flip a coin.
If I end up making the switch, I'll try to be pleasant to fly with on the 350. I'll be the short bald guy who doesn't want to land short of the runway or run out of gas.
A few things off the top of my head that happened as an ATL 73N B:
First trip off OE:
We take off, and it's pretty cold in the flight deck. I look up at the temp selectors and notice that the flight deck temp controller is at full cold. I reach up and put it to about 11 o'clock. The captain immediately reaches up, twists it full cold, and says, "I run my flight deck cold!" OK. A little odd. I get my puffy Columbia jacket out of my bag, put it on, and never touched the temperature controllers again for the rest of the trip. No big deal, really.
Different day, different captain:
We're climbing to an intermediate altitude, maybe 240. We get a clearance to continue the climb to 350. I read the clearance back. The captain says, "350," but he doesn't scroll it into the altitude selection window. I wait 5 or 10 seconds, and he turns to his iPad to start looking something up. I point to the altitude selection window and say, "did you want to put 350 here?" The captain snaps, "I'll get to it when I'm ready!" He then waits until we're 1000 before level off to put the higher altitude in the altitude selection window.
Later that same leg, we're getting slam dunked, and the captain doesn't seem to be doing anything about it. I say, "I think we're high and fast." The captain says, "we're fine." At 1500 AFE we're doing a little over 2000 FPM. I say, "sink rate." The captain initially eases the rate of descent, then he asks, "did the airplane say that, or was it you?" I say, "it was me." He mutters something to himself, pushes the nose over. Four red on the PAPI, GPWS shouting at us, he continues to a landing, touches down, and immediately goes max manual braking to make the first turnoff.
Different day, different captain:
BHM to ATL leg. Widget WX shows a wall of severe TS between BHM and ATL. I turn my iPad so that the captain can see it and ask, "what's the plan for the weather between here and there?" He says, "we'll use the radar and pick our way through." We take off, and the weather looks terrible on the radar. I say, "that looks pretty bad." The captain says nothing, reaches up and deselects the radar on his side. While I'm trying to figure out what to say, ATC puts us into holding. ATC tells us, "no one is getting into ATL right now."
I look at the flight plan, do some quick back of the napkin math, and come up with what I think is our minimum legal fuel before divert. The captain doesn't seem to be doing any of this. I say, "I've got my number." He says, "what?" I say, "what do you think is a good fuel number before we need to divert?" Captain does some math, and comes up with a number 2000 pounds below mine. I say, "I came up with a number 2000 pounds higher." He says, "we're using mine."
I explain in detail how I came up with my number, and the captain says, "we're using mine." We keep holding until we get to my number. I tell the captain that I think we need to go to BHM. He says we are waiting another 2000 pounds, and if we divert, we're going to CHS. I tell him that CHS is through the weather, and we are at the minimum fuel to fly to ATL, go missed, and still make our alternate. I think we should turn around and go to BHM.
We get cleared to another fix closer to the field. As we are approaching the fix, ATC puts us into holding again. I tell the captain that we need to go to BHM. He says, "no." I key the mic and tell ATC that we need to divert to BHM. ATC clears us through the weather for the approach. It's Mr. Toad's Wild Ride all the way to the field. We touch down with 4.1.
There was an AE closing the next day. I bid every ATL captain spot in pay rate order, and they gave me 73N A.
If I knew the culture on the ATL 350 is like it was on the NYC 7ER, then I'd make the switch in a heartbeat. If I knew the culture on the ATL 350 is like it was when I was an ATL 73N B, then I'd stay in the left seat until I could upgrade into the 330 or 350. Most responses seem to think I'm out to lunch, so maybe I'll just flip a coin.
If I end up making the switch, I'll try to be pleasant to fly with on the 350. I'll be the short bald guy who doesn't want to land short of the runway or run out of gas.
I think I figured out the problem. Go to PBS and under default bid, delete the line that say : Buddy bid with Captain Happy.”
Either that our your superpower is A-Hole magnet.Seriously though I was an FO for 17 years and maybe had two similar incidents. You obviously had a run of bad luck but look at the bright side, law of averages says you will fly with a string of really cool Captains and when you upgrade you know what not to do.
FWIW I was mostly LAX based as a 73N A and have heard a few similar stories from FOs that were previously based in ATL so there probably is a bit of a cultural difference between bases.
Scoop
08-20-2023, 07:20 AM
#4373
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Slingin' Gear and Drinkin' Beer
Posts: 595
I think the most valuable part of being a FO was not the flying experience, beyond the 2 years of "this is how 121 is different/better/worse than my old flying" I had about 6,000 hours pre delta, granted not 121, but still fairly experienced.. Over 10,000 if you counted helicopters which they didn't at the time.
The real value was seeing awesome Captains who I try to emulate, and the "oh, hell no, if I find myself being that guy, it's time to really reevaluate myself" guys.
I still flub some crew management/interaction things up. There's always things I could have done better.
But I remember things I learned from now retired ER Captains on how to deal with X Y and Z, and more importantly how to treat crews well. And deal with FAs who aren't being reasonable, without shutting out the rest of the crew.
The real value was seeing awesome Captains who I try to emulate, and the "oh, hell no, if I find myself being that guy, it's time to really reevaluate myself" guys.
I still flub some crew management/interaction things up. There's always things I could have done better.
But I remember things I learned from now retired ER Captains on how to deal with X Y and Z, and more importantly how to treat crews well. And deal with FAs who aren't being reasonable, without shutting out the rest of the crew.
One Captain, wasn't his fini flight, but was probably the last international trip. Holiday weekend. Europe. Loads were decent so me and the other F/O had our wives come. His wife was on a purchased ticket. We were both on new hire, or just off of it. Wouldn't let us pay for anything. "Just try to be that guy who remembers what it was like to take a huge paycut to start a new job, and don't be a total cheapskate... Buy the new guys Coffee, Beer, a dinner.. Grab the FAs a box of Pad Du Chocolat".
08-20-2023, 11:47 AM
#4374
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2023
Posts: 25
NYC7ER truly the best flying in the system? Getting ready to start training soon on the ER, hear nothing but great things. Will be sitting around 60% seniority. Is this good enough to get at least a few international trips per month? I live in base. TIA
08-20-2023, 12:56 PM
#4375
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2023
Posts: 114
Winter you won’t hold any international besides maybe Accra and Dakar but you should have a good summer.
08-20-2023, 02:11 PM
#4376
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: LAX ER
Posts: 1,606
the Europe really is spring break to end of Sept. that’s a good half of the year. Can’t say I know much about winter as a LAX pilot. That’s usually when our bid package thrives and the pacific grows lol
08-20-2023, 02:21 PM
#4377
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2023
Posts: 114
Yes. Half the year will be domestic trips but at 60% he should be able to hold the “better” domestics. He’ll hold a decent international line in the summer. Won’t be the top destinations like Italy, Athens or Prague but any city in Europe will be better than domestic IMO.
08-20-2023, 02:22 PM
#4378
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 889
summer you should hold a lot of the international destinations. Winter accra and Dakar. Swap board you can probably get a lot more. But yes I tell the FOs I fly with that as company plug they are literally in the best seat flying wise in the entire system. I have zero idea why anyone would bid the 320/73/220 out of NYC over the ER.
08-20-2023, 06:07 PM
#4379
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,125
summer you should hold a lot of the international destinations. Winter accra and Dakar. Swap board you can probably get a lot more. But yes I tell the FOs I fly with that as company plug they are literally in the best seat flying wise in the entire system. I have zero idea why anyone would bid the 320/73/220 out of NYC over the ER.
08-20-2023, 10:03 PM
#4380
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 339
Off topic, any word on the future of the 400s?
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