Prepare yourselves… 2023 AEs
05-14-2023, 04:25 AM
#2382
Moderator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,807
How many truthfully downgrade themselves? A lot of people on internet say this then it seems like it almost never happens on the bids (in any meaningful capacity worth mentioning). It’s not like this summer is shockingly different than all the previous red lined summers. If anything going forward it could be better with new PWA improvements coming on the overnights and pay.
I think this is just a lodged internet complaint that doesn’t hold much water in reality.
I think this is just a lodged internet complaint that doesn’t hold much water in reality.
Historically it seems to be a pretty small number...with the new pay rates, who knows. I know of one other poster who went from 73NA to WB B and he seems pretty happy with the move. I know if they get rid of my category, I'll look hard at moving up to 320A/320A vs WB B and see where I sit.
What’s a downgrade? $283 for WB-B vs $308 for WB A. Difference $25 an hour.
This doesn’t include international override.
This is also the difference between 150 block hours a year and 600 block hours per year. I’m considering it, for sure. My only concern is sleep in the international world. I think I can hack it 150 hours per year though. I know two other NB A’s that are 100% going to WB-B next bid. I’m on the fence. So in the little bubble I live in, 66% of the people I know that are considering downgrading themselves will for sure be doing it, with one maybe.
Has nothing to do with “red line” and everything to do with the new PWA/rates/reserve.
This doesn’t include international override.
This is also the difference between 150 block hours a year and 600 block hours per year. I’m considering it, for sure. My only concern is sleep in the international world. I think I can hack it 150 hours per year though. I know two other NB A’s that are 100% going to WB-B next bid. I’m on the fence. So in the little bubble I live in, 66% of the people I know that are considering downgrading themselves will for sure be doing it, with one maybe.
Has nothing to do with “red line” and everything to do with the new PWA/rates/reserve.
On the 717/220 the pay rate difference isn't far for sure, but when you talk 320/73N, it's closer to $55-60/hr difference. If you want the international override to make a big factor, you're won't only be flying 150 hours/yr on a WB, one 3-day/month to DTW-LHR puts you at 200 hours of block for the year. Staffing the way it is on the WB right now, I'm not sure many are flying that little. Block hours may not even go down much...but days worked per month, that's a different story.
05-14-2023, 04:44 AM
#2383
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: Wind checker
Posts: 773
Let me expound on my earlier answer. People who were here pre-optimizer remember the NB being a pretty good life I think. Yes, we might have hustled a bit here and there but overall there was a decent margin to do a good job and not be completely frazzled all the time.
Because honestly, the NB life has become a treadmill of suck. You can workout or you can eat a good meal but you can’t do both. On some reroutes, you can do neither unless you put your foot down and say enough. To be even more honest, I was sick of the push and the constant hustle, the crap hotels in many places, and the sacrifice of any time built into the schedule to slow down in the eternal quest to “capture revenue.”
You can see this in ATL 320 in particular but I’m sure all NBs have their stories. In ATL there are 1100 320As and Bs in a constant Brownian motion scrum of fly to FDP/PWA limits, crap layover reduced to min time, reroute, repeat. When talking rotations, Atlanta is a lot like Midas, except instead of gold, when crews touch ATL, they get feces. For people who want to get paid, the current idiocy present in those categories provides a serious amount of money for the taking. For others, who might be looking for QoL balance, did I mention you can make some money?
So off to the 330 I went. Don’t get me wrong, there are folks out there that want the money the left seat provides and I hope they find joy in what they do. A huge number of permutations here for folks to find their niche. My current niche is a far less stressful one than my previous gig and suits me fine.
Beef or chicken after the first break please.
Stay thirsty, my friends.
Because honestly, the NB life has become a treadmill of suck. You can workout or you can eat a good meal but you can’t do both. On some reroutes, you can do neither unless you put your foot down and say enough. To be even more honest, I was sick of the push and the constant hustle, the crap hotels in many places, and the sacrifice of any time built into the schedule to slow down in the eternal quest to “capture revenue.”
You can see this in ATL 320 in particular but I’m sure all NBs have their stories. In ATL there are 1100 320As and Bs in a constant Brownian motion scrum of fly to FDP/PWA limits, crap layover reduced to min time, reroute, repeat. When talking rotations, Atlanta is a lot like Midas, except instead of gold, when crews touch ATL, they get feces. For people who want to get paid, the current idiocy present in those categories provides a serious amount of money for the taking. For others, who might be looking for QoL balance, did I mention you can make some money?
So off to the 330 I went. Don’t get me wrong, there are folks out there that want the money the left seat provides and I hope they find joy in what they do. A huge number of permutations here for folks to find their niche. My current niche is a far less stressful one than my previous gig and suits me fine.
Beef or chicken after the first break please.
Stay thirsty, my friends.
05-14-2023, 04:51 AM
#2384
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: LAX ER
Posts: 1,606
What’s a downgrade? $283 for WB-B vs $308 for WB A. Difference $25 an hour.
This doesn’t include international override.
This is also the difference between 150 block hours a year and 600 block hours per year. I’m considering it, for sure. My only concern is sleep in the international world. I think I can hack it 150 hours per year though. I know two other NB A’s that are 100% going to WB-B next bid. I’m on the fence. So in the little bubble I live in, 66% of the people I know that are considering downgrading themselves will for sure be doing it, with one maybe.
Has nothing to do with “red line” and everything to do with the new PWA/rates/reserve.
This doesn’t include international override.
This is also the difference between 150 block hours a year and 600 block hours per year. I’m considering it, for sure. My only concern is sleep in the international world. I think I can hack it 150 hours per year though. I know two other NB A’s that are 100% going to WB-B next bid. I’m on the fence. So in the little bubble I live in, 66% of the people I know that are considering downgrading themselves will for sure be doing it, with one maybe.
Has nothing to do with “red line” and everything to do with the new PWA/rates/reserve.
you say it has nothing to do with red line, when the most people who say they want to bid a widebody is because they are so tired of getting slaughtered on the line with the 737/320 schedules.
it’s a lot more complex of a bid to downgrade yourself then just pure numbers. Not saying that it is for you. For vast majority of pilots, and I’m sure captains, they aren’t just comparing pay scale and crossing pay.
even if this was a pure pay decision you have to consider GS’s, reroute pay, more protection pay for domestic ops like sit pay/duty pay/etc that will be hitting the pockets of NB pilots a hell of a lot more than WB pilots.
Just my 2c. Never seen this exodus downgrade everyone talks about. The WB’s keep trending the other way, more junior.
05-14-2023, 05:12 AM
#2385
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2020
Posts: 2,383
Yeah but this isn’t what everyone else feels or bids off of. That’s kind of my point, people keep assuming their bidding tactics apply as a blanket all.
you say it has nothing to do with red line, when the most people who say they want to bid a widebody is because they are so tired of getting slaughtered on the line with the 737/320 schedules.
it’s a lot more complex of a bid to downgrade yourself then just pure numbers. Not saying that it is for you. For vast majority of pilots, and I’m sure captains, they aren’t just comparing pay scale and crossing pay.
even if this was a pure pay decision you have to consider GS’s, reroute pay, more protection pay for domestic ops like sit pay/duty pay/etc that will be hitting the pockets of NB pilots a hell of a lot more than WB pilots.
Just my 2c. Never seen this exodus downgrade everyone talks about. The WB’s keep trending the other way, more junior.
you say it has nothing to do with red line, when the most people who say they want to bid a widebody is because they are so tired of getting slaughtered on the line with the 737/320 schedules.
it’s a lot more complex of a bid to downgrade yourself then just pure numbers. Not saying that it is for you. For vast majority of pilots, and I’m sure captains, they aren’t just comparing pay scale and crossing pay.
even if this was a pure pay decision you have to consider GS’s, reroute pay, more protection pay for domestic ops like sit pay/duty pay/etc that will be hitting the pockets of NB pilots a hell of a lot more than WB pilots.
Just my 2c. Never seen this exodus downgrade everyone talks about. The WB’s keep trending the other way, more junior.
05-14-2023, 05:38 AM
#2386
Back on Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Position: A330 FO
Posts: 717
A logistics type question for the APC brain: IF DL ended up going to smaller, more frequent AEs, how do you think this would manifest itself? How long would it take to stabilize staffing? I believe that we'd be seriously behind the training/staffing curve for at least 6 months (like we are currently) and then recognize the benefits, but I'm not sure crew planning can see the light at the end of that tunnel.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
05-14-2023, 06:46 AM
#2387
Moderator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,807
A logistics type question for the APC brain: IF DL ended up going to smaller, more frequent AEs, how do you think this would manifest itself? How long would it take to stabilize staffing? I believe that we'd be seriously behind the training/staffing curve for at least 6 months (like we are currently) and then recognize the benefits, but I'm not sure crew planning can see the light at the end of that tunnel.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Circa 2015-2016, we were running an AE every 6ish weeks. AE's were consistent and made things a little more predicable. I was even able to utilize the "senior to you bidding" tool on iCrew and shack the AE in which I would get awarded WB B. One would think that this method would allow the company to sharpshoot category staffing. However, I think I remember BS saying something like the bigger bids save the company money. Not sure how that works but I'll take his word for it. Seems like monthly or quarterly bids (yes I know xxx company had that decades ago....) would be much more manageable from a training and staffing perspective. I certainly don't have the whole pictures, so I'm sure I'm missing something.
05-14-2023, 09:07 AM
#2388
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 560
Yeah but this isn’t what everyone else feels or bids off of. That’s kind of my point, people keep assuming their bidding tactics apply as a blanket all.
you say it has nothing to do with red line, when the most people who say they want to bid a widebody is because they are so tired of getting slaughtered on the line with the 737/320 schedules.
it’s a lot more complex of a bid to downgrade yourself then just pure numbers. Not saying that it is for you. For vast majority of pilots, and I’m sure captains, they aren’t just comparing pay scale and crossing pay.
even if this was a pure pay decision you have to consider GS’s, reroute pay, more protection pay for domestic ops like sit pay/duty pay/etc that will be hitting the pockets of NB pilots a hell of a lot more than WB pilots.
Just my 2c. Never seen this exodus downgrade everyone talks about. The WB’s keep trending the other way, more junior.
you say it has nothing to do with red line, when the most people who say they want to bid a widebody is because they are so tired of getting slaughtered on the line with the 737/320 schedules.
it’s a lot more complex of a bid to downgrade yourself then just pure numbers. Not saying that it is for you. For vast majority of pilots, and I’m sure captains, they aren’t just comparing pay scale and crossing pay.
even if this was a pure pay decision you have to consider GS’s, reroute pay, more protection pay for domestic ops like sit pay/duty pay/etc that will be hitting the pockets of NB pilots a hell of a lot more than WB pilots.
Just my 2c. Never seen this exodus downgrade everyone talks about. The WB’s keep trending the other way, more junior.
Pay wise the discrepancy is small for me and I’m not a “gotta be the captain” kind of guy. I say this as I sit here taxiing in on a domestic rrt deadhead. The irony 😂
I personally don’t care how or why people bid, I’m just telling you guys do it. People think NB A Pay is gonna entice people back to the soul crushing side of this…. Nah.
05-14-2023, 09:09 AM
#2389
Leaves Biscoff crumbs
Joined APC: Jan 2020
Position: Blue Juice Taste Tester
Posts: 1,363
Circa 2015-2016, we were running an AE every 6ish weeks. AE's were consistent and made things a little more predicable. I was even able to utilize the "senior to you bidding" tool on iCrew and shack the AE in which I would get awarded WB B. One would think that this method would allow the company to sharpshoot category staffing. However, I think I remember BS saying something like the bigger bids save the company money. Not sure how that works but I'll take his word for it. Seems like monthly or quarterly bids (yes I know xxx company had that decades ago....) would be much more manageable from a training and staffing perspective. I certainly don't have the whole pictures, so I'm sure I'm missing something.
05-14-2023, 09:51 AM
#2390
Back on Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Position: A330 FO
Posts: 717
I'm with you on both the cost and the course-correct. A big question though is how long to get it to this point? 6-mo, 12-mo, 24-mo? This current 'massive AE' mentality just doesn't make sense to me.
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