Baradium

You realize the only way they can do it is to get us to agree to change the contract, right? Well obviously you don't, but this is pretty funny actually.

FlexManFlex

You are correct. I’m just saying something has to give at some point. Idk what the solution is but the idea of “the contract will protect me” can only go so far. Lawyers are a powerful thing and if it comes down to money or the contract, money will find a way to win. That’s my opinion. I hope you are right and we just end up canceling a thousand flights this year because we have no PIC to command the flight. But I don’t think that’ll be the long term solution.

FlexManFlex

Our contract also gives us a pay scale. But when times get bad, what happens? That pay scale gets tossed out the window and we get paid a “b scale.” The contract only applies to good times and when the company finally realizes that we have no captains because the domestic trips are garbage, the contract may not apply as much as we think.

interceptorpilo

As far as I know the B scale etc. was approved by the Union. So yes that is a very salient comparison. The Union can approve to amend the contract to force upgrades. The only question is - what are they (the company) willing to give up for that?

runinonfumes

The company has full control over how high to turn the up the misery meter on the optimizer. It’s been at level 11 for so long now no one wants to be junior, even at the expense of a huge huge pile of money. That is a powerful statement on our part as the labor. It’s entirely up to them to lower the level to allow QOL to return to 50-80% range of the NB categories, and then normal upgrade progression should return. There is only so many new hires willing to jump on the bottom of the list grenade and then they will realize they must act. (Hopefully)

PilotWombat

It's really not. The B scale and all other contract concessions were a consequence of the way the RLA works and bankruptcy laws are written in the US. They were gives when things were truly bad. What FMF is raving about is that things are SO good, that the company can't keep up anymore by wringing any more productivity out of their pilots that they already have. Big difference.

myrkridia

The picture you are painting is far more dire than the existing circumstances. Most pilots aren't nearly as concerned because (as many have already stated) there is currently no contractual lever for the company to force upgrades as you say. If the operation truly begins to be affected by a captain shortage then the company and union will come to the table and negotiate. That is when pilots will start to take a position on what we should do about it. I'm sure it would be controversial and we'd be able to enjoy a half dozen APC threads on it with hot takes on both sides that inevitably get derailed into political squabbling.


Edit: Also we have yet to see what kind of effect the QOL changes to the PWA will have on bidding behavior. For example, if rotations get better it's totally possible more FOs are willing to pull the trigger on upgrading.

FangsF15

This right here. As you say, I suspect when the C19 section 12 & 23 delayed implementation items are fully felt, (12.T. over 10 hours of FDP earning 1:1 pay/no credit, for example), NB A will start to go much more senior. . And if that doesn't move the needle enough, the company will be forced to improve QOL, Pay, or both to fix the problem - lest they have to pay an incredibly steep price as a quid to ALPA, which will be anathema to the company. Those are the only options.

chrisreedrules

Anyone not already bidding an A position isn’t going to magically change their mind due to some QOL items. Especially when most FOs with 3-4 years of seniority can already easily make what a Captain made under the old contract.

They’re waiting until they can hold partial weekends or until kids get a little older etc. Or they’re wanting to try out some widebody international flying first. I suspect that the trips/schedules on the narrowbodies are going to remain somewhat brutal as regionals continue their collapse. We’ll just get paid a little more for them. And I don’t think pay is the issue for why many FOs who can hold a CA seat aren’t bidding it.

I’ve talked to very few FOs who have been holding out that are all of a sudden clamoring to upgrade. But I have talked to many who are speculating that this will be the case. I just don’t see it.

Upgrades will trend more senior when the music starts to slow. That could be this year (economy) or next year (staffing reaching more of an equilibrium). Right now no one is worried about going back to 90% and giving up every shred of QOL they have for a few sheckles more.

ALL THAT BEING SAID… I think the reason we’re seeing such junior pilots bid for / be awarded CA positions is because they haven’t tasted good QOL yet and are acclimated to the routine as a junior FO. Why not get paid more for the same routine? And personally I haven’t seen a vast difference in QOL between 90% and 65% as a narrowbody FO. Trips are all kind of the same based on what I bid for. I have dubious success in getting some days off I want, but otherwise not much difference.

myrkridia

Granted many are probably not going to move but all it takes is for some/enough to change their mind. As an example, the 18hr LC is something I'm very interested in seeing how it plays out and may make me move categories sooner than I originally thought. I agree with you on staffing having a larger effect on bidding behavior than contractual QOL improvements or pay.