A350-1000 and other Fleet News
10-22-2023, 12:58 PM
#1312
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Position: UNA
Posts: 4,629
1) the pay difference to bring the 330/764 up to the 350 was about 6%, or 25% total raise. To do the same for the 763 it would have required 19%, or 41% total raise; giving it a hugely disproportionate raise compared to everyone else.
2) UA and AA already set a precedent that the 764 and 330 would pay the same as larger WBs. but neither paid the 763 even remotely close to that number. The industry standard is 764/330 at 777/350 rate and 763 slightly above 737 pay.
3) the 763 will be the next WB retired. It may last til 2030, it may not make it that long, it may go longer…but it won’t outlast the 330. We are getting more 330s but unless something wild happens we won’t be getting any more 763s. The 764 was easy to tag along to this because it already paid the same as the 330. We put our negotiating capital into what we will be flying well into the future, not our flex fleet.
4) the 330/764 are pure widebody categories. Our 45 763s are in a combined category with 130 ish 757s. There would be lots of soft pay implications to paying the 763s WB rates and I’m sure DL would have put a hefty price tag on things like paying WB rates to all the ER pilots sitting reserve mostly flying the 757.
the pay banding we got on the 320, 330 and 764 mostly brought us in line with how AA and UA pay their pilots, it was probably an easier item to negotiate. The same cannot be said about paying the 763 like the 350.
10-22-2023, 01:46 PM
#1313
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Representing the REAL Delta
Posts: 857
However that’s not the big picture. Prior to the merger, DALPA utilized a negotiating strategy made famous by Lee Moak. You can call it “Moakism” for a lack of better terms.
Constructive collaboration, which is basically sitting at the table and creating a negotiating strategy that frames our desires within the bounds of the company’s proposal. This makes for a very quick negotiation process. The company and the union were very friendly and collaborative with one another.
Once a TA was reached, the union would sell it using another concept known as the Time Value of Money. This idea is that ever thought further negotiations may yield a better pay rate for example, the fact that I can begin investing the contractual gains earlier is beneficial. This is why Delta had never shot down a contract until 2014, well after the merger.
At the same time the senior Delta pilot group had a habit of shafting the junior pilots for their own gains. A good example is “express”, which had different pay rates for the exact same aircraft. It was a mindset that you’ll get yours one day when you are senior. Kind of like the senior guys pushing for age 67. Those guys got hammered by age 65 but it is now their god given right to get a windfall at the detriment of the junior pilot group. Even though the true deadzoners are long gone.
Back to the 7ER….Delta had something like 100 767s but very few 767-400 and 777s. I don’t think it was ever more than 30 combined. So we negotiated very lucrative pay rates on the “premium” wide bodies and narrow body rates for the 767 200/300. The idea was that when you are senior, you’ll be able to bid the premium aircraft.
This is the reason we have one year captains on the 7ER and nothing close to that on the other wide bodies. Many folks don’t consider the 767-300 a wide body for this reason. You’re getting narrow body rate to fly a wide body. Delta is getting those things operated for a song.
Last edited by cornbeef007; 10-22-2023 at 02:03 PM.
10-22-2023, 04:56 PM
#1314
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
Sailing has a very elegant explanation for the reason the rates ended up where they did.
However that’s not the big picture. Prior to the merger, DALPA utilized a negotiating strategy made famous by Lee Moak. You can call it “Moakism” for a lack of better terms.
Constructive collaboration, which is basically sitting at the table and creating a negotiating strategy that frames our desires within the bounds of the company’s proposal. This makes for a very quick negotiation process. The company and the union were very friendly and collaborative with one another.
Once a TA was reached, the union would sell it using another concept known as the Time Value of Money. This idea is that ever thought further negotiations may yield a better pay rate for example, the fact that I can begin investing the contractual gains earlier is beneficial. This is why Delta had never shot down a contract until 2014, well after the merger.
At the same time the senior Delta pilot group had a habit of shafting the junior pilots for their own gains. A good example is “express”, which had different pay rates for the exact same aircraft. It was a mindset that you’ll get yours one day when you are senior. Kind of like the senior guys pushing for age 67. Those guys got hammered by age 65 but it is now their god given right to get a windfall at the detriment of the junior pilot group. Even though the true deadzoners are long gone.
Back to the 7ER….Delta had something like 100 767s but very few 767-400 and 777s. I don’t think it was ever more than 30 combined. So we negotiated very lucrative pay rates on the “premium” wide bodies and narrow body rates for the 767 200/300. The idea was that when you are senior, you’ll be able to bid the premium aircraft.
This is the reason we have one year captains on the 7ER and nothing close to that on the other wide bodies. Many folks don’t consider the 767-300 a wide body for this reason. You’re getting narrow body rate to fly a wide body. Delta is getting those things operated for a song.
However that’s not the big picture. Prior to the merger, DALPA utilized a negotiating strategy made famous by Lee Moak. You can call it “Moakism” for a lack of better terms.
Constructive collaboration, which is basically sitting at the table and creating a negotiating strategy that frames our desires within the bounds of the company’s proposal. This makes for a very quick negotiation process. The company and the union were very friendly and collaborative with one another.
Once a TA was reached, the union would sell it using another concept known as the Time Value of Money. This idea is that ever thought further negotiations may yield a better pay rate for example, the fact that I can begin investing the contractual gains earlier is beneficial. This is why Delta had never shot down a contract until 2014, well after the merger.
At the same time the senior Delta pilot group had a habit of shafting the junior pilots for their own gains. A good example is “express”, which had different pay rates for the exact same aircraft. It was a mindset that you’ll get yours one day when you are senior. Kind of like the senior guys pushing for age 67. Those guys got hammered by age 65 but it is now their god given right to get a windfall at the detriment of the junior pilot group. Even though the true deadzoners are long gone.
Back to the 7ER….Delta had something like 100 767s but very few 767-400 and 777s. I don’t think it was ever more than 30 combined. So we negotiated very lucrative pay rates on the “premium” wide bodies and narrow body rates for the 767 200/300. The idea was that when you are senior, you’ll be able to bid the premium aircraft.
This is the reason we have one year captains on the 7ER and nothing close to that on the other wide bodies. Many folks don’t consider the 767-300 a wide body for this reason. You’re getting narrow body rate to fly a wide body. Delta is getting those things operated for a song.
10-22-2023, 05:02 PM
#1315
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
we could go circles around this all day. But
1) the pay difference to bring the 330/764 up to the 350 was about 6%, or 25% total raise. To do the same for the 763 it would have required 19%, or 41% total raise; giving it a hugely disproportionate raise compared to everyone else.
2) UA and AA already set a precedent that the 764 and 330 would pay the same as larger WBs. but neither paid the 763 even remotely close to that number. The industry standard is 764/330 at 777/350 rate and 763 slightly above 737 pay.
3) the 763 will be the next WB retired. It may last til 2030, it may not make it that long, it may go longer…but it won’t outlast the 330. We are getting more 330s but unless something wild happens we won’t be getting any more 763s. The 764 was easy to tag along to this because it already paid the same as the 330. We put our negotiating capital into what we will be flying well into the future, not our flex fleet.
4) the 330/764 are pure widebody categories. Our 45 763s are in a combined category with 130 ish 757s. There would be lots of soft pay implications to paying the 763s WB rates and I’m sure DL would have put a hefty price tag on things like paying WB rates to all the ER pilots sitting reserve mostly flying the 757.
the pay banding we got on the 320, 330 and 764 mostly brought us in line with how AA and UA pay their pilots, it was probably an easier item to negotiate. The same cannot be said about paying the 763 like the 350.
1) the pay difference to bring the 330/764 up to the 350 was about 6%, or 25% total raise. To do the same for the 763 it would have required 19%, or 41% total raise; giving it a hugely disproportionate raise compared to everyone else.
2) UA and AA already set a precedent that the 764 and 330 would pay the same as larger WBs. but neither paid the 763 even remotely close to that number. The industry standard is 764/330 at 777/350 rate and 763 slightly above 737 pay.
3) the 763 will be the next WB retired. It may last til 2030, it may not make it that long, it may go longer…but it won’t outlast the 330. We are getting more 330s but unless something wild happens we won’t be getting any more 763s. The 764 was easy to tag along to this because it already paid the same as the 330. We put our negotiating capital into what we will be flying well into the future, not our flex fleet.
4) the 330/764 are pure widebody categories. Our 45 763s are in a combined category with 130 ish 757s. There would be lots of soft pay implications to paying the 763s WB rates and I’m sure DL would have put a hefty price tag on things like paying WB rates to all the ER pilots sitting reserve mostly flying the 757.
the pay banding we got on the 320, 330 and 764 mostly brought us in line with how AA and UA pay their pilots, it was probably an easier item to negotiate. The same cannot be said about paying the 763 like the 350.
We have these amazing computer devices that can break out pay differences between the 757 and 767... soft pay and all. It isn't all that hard. That argument is hollow.
Ahhhhhhh and then we come to the 'negotiate for the future' argument. I will assume you are new to this industry, because as you will learn an airplane is here until it isn't. By the same token, it isn't here until pilots have been trained and it is in the bid package. We threw them (and the 717 guys) under the bus. Period.
10-22-2023, 05:15 PM
#1316
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 923
FedEx also signed their last contract in ~September 2015 if I’m not mistaken. I believe United followed in late 2015/early 2016. Then we came along in Oct-Dec 2016 and further raised the bar. The FedEx 767-300 pilots far out earned ours during that contract cycle until our recently signed contract. Additionally, they have what, 70%+ of their pilots earning widebody rates versus roughly 20% of ours. I’m not saying things are better there, but it’s not an all or nothing discussion. It’s pros and cons and the 767-300 pay is a pro for them and a con for us, no matter how you want to slice it or tell yourself it’s ok.
As far as I understand, the “20% DC” in their failed TA included 9% DC and 11% MCBP (much lower returns I believe?). I’d take 18% DC all day long, not to mention the cash over cap as you say.
As far as I understand, the “20% DC” in their failed TA included 9% DC and 11% MCBP (much lower returns I believe?). I’d take 18% DC all day long, not to mention the cash over cap as you say.
10-22-2023, 06:40 PM
#1318
Moderator
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,802
The 330/764 guys got a disproportionate raise compared to mine. That argument doesn't hold water.
We have these amazing computer devices that can break out pay differences between the 757 and 767... soft pay and all. It isn't all that hard. That argument is hollow.
Ahhhhhhh and then we come to the 'negotiate for the future' argument. I will assume you are new to this industry, because as you will learn an airplane is here until it isn't. By the same token, it isn't here until pilots have been trained and it is in the bid package. We threw them (and the 717 guys) under the bus. Period.
We have these amazing computer devices that can break out pay differences between the 757 and 767... soft pay and all. It isn't all that hard. That argument is hollow.
Ahhhhhhh and then we come to the 'negotiate for the future' argument. I will assume you are new to this industry, because as you will learn an airplane is here until it isn't. By the same token, it isn't here until pilots have been trained and it is in the bid package. We threw them (and the 717 guys) under the bus. Period.
Honestly, it simply comes across as self-interested sour grapes, not a coherent argument for why the 763 should pay more (despite a loooooong history otherwise), or why you “got less” of a raise than some - when you are at the tippy top of the pay scale already.
10-23-2023, 01:06 AM
#1319
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
You’ve made this argument 49 times. Do you honestly think if you make this exact same “threw them under the bus” statement for the 50th time, suddenly you’ll finally convince someone? The fact is, you got a 20% raise (thanks for +2% UA). Pay banding the International categories is a good thing for everyone.
Honestly, it simply comes across as self-interested sour grapes, not a coherent argument for why the 763 should pay more (despite a loooooong history otherwise), or why you “got less” of a raise than some - when you are at the tippy top of the pay scale already.
Honestly, it simply comes across as self-interested sour grapes, not a coherent argument for why the 763 should pay more (despite a loooooong history otherwise), or why you “got less” of a raise than some - when you are at the tippy top of the pay scale already.
And regardless of what percentage spin you want to put on it, our raises still lag inflation. Good job MEC.
10-23-2023, 02:28 AM
#1320
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Position: UNA
Posts: 4,629
The 330/764 guys got a disproportionate raise compared to mine. That argument doesn't hold water.
We have these amazing computer devices that can break out pay differences between the 757 and 767... soft pay and all. It isn't all that hard. That argument is hollow.
Ahhhhhhh and then we come to the 'negotiate for the future' argument. I will assume you are new to this industry, because as you will learn an airplane is here until it isn't. By the same token, it isn't here until pilots have been trained and it is in the bid package. We threw them (and the 717 guys) under the bus. Period.
We have these amazing computer devices that can break out pay differences between the 757 and 767... soft pay and all. It isn't all that hard. That argument is hollow.
Ahhhhhhh and then we come to the 'negotiate for the future' argument. I will assume you are new to this industry, because as you will learn an airplane is here until it isn't. By the same token, it isn't here until pilots have been trained and it is in the bid package. We threw them (and the 717 guys) under the bus. Period.
it’s not just the fact it two rates, it’s the fact they would have to pay WB rates to all the ER pilots sitting reserve flying the 757, all ER pilots when they attend CQ, IQ, ect.
im not new, do you think the 30 year old 767s we have will be here longer than the 330NEOs we are buying today?
Stop with the tHeY gOt ThRoWn UnDEr ThE bUs line. It’s old, tired and untrue. The fact is we were paying the 330, 764, and 320 less than our peers were and we fixed that. That’s it. The 717, 221, 737, 321, NEO, ER and 350 all got an 18% raise, we adjusted a few other aircraft up slightly more to bring them in line with how other airlines paid them.
