A350-1000 and other Fleet News
10-16-2023, 02:26 PM
#1302
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,558
sorry I have no beef with you and I didn’t mean to sound like a dick. It just seems like people argue about networking way too much when this airline changes the wind monthly. There is absolutely no doubt the neo has the bright future here. I could care less what the 757 does personally. But I may have come off the wrong way, using this app before I have my morning coffee. Wouldn’t be my first time around here so my bad.
except trip. I don’t care what the kool-aid man has to say.
except trip. I don’t care what the kool-aid man has to say.
10-19-2023, 07:10 AM
#1303
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Maddog FO
Posts: 653
Not to mention that no other carrier pays the 767 at a higher pay step than Delta already does. But they all pay the 330/764 at the same rate as the 777/350. C2019 finally resolved this glaring hole in our contract, relative to UA and AA.
Same goes for the 319/320, which is paid the same as the 737-800 everywhere else, but was artificially held down at the Delta/NW merger due to… reasons.
Delta pilots have been flying the 319/320/330/764 at a discount compared to the entire industry since the JCBA.
The same is simply not true of the 767, no matter how triggered James and Company are on the matter.
Same goes for the 319/320, which is paid the same as the 737-800 everywhere else, but was artificially held down at the Delta/NW merger due to… reasons.
Delta pilots have been flying the 319/320/330/764 at a discount compared to the entire industry since the JCBA.
The same is simply not true of the 767, no matter how triggered James and Company are on the matter.
10-19-2023, 07:52 AM
#1304
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 330 B
Posts: 1,622
FedEx has the 767-300 paid as a true widebody matching their 777, MD-11 & A300 pay. Why our 767-300 widebody international airplane gets paid narrowbody domestic rates is a little puzzling. Yeah there’s like 40 of them and they’re old so no negotiating capital yada yada, but it still doesn’t make sense.
10-19-2023, 05:38 PM
#1305
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2022
Posts: 208
FedEx has the 767-300 paid as a true widebody matching their 777, MD-11 & A300 pay. Why our 767-300 widebody international airplane gets paid narrowbody domestic rates is a little puzzling. Yeah there’s like 40 of them and they’re old so no negotiating capital yada yada, but it still doesn’t make sense.
And the 764/330/787 bone job that existed since the merger was fixed in C2019, and was a LONG time coming. How quickly some forget.
EDIT: A319/320 should be added to the list, and were brought up to 737 rates (where they should
have been all along) in this contract too. The only reason UA/AA now pay their 321neos the 757 rate is because DL got it first. They all paid the NEO significantly less prior to their recent deals, and DALPA did the whole industry a major solid by pushing the NEO rate as hard as they did, considering how prolific that airframe will be in the industry when we fast forward 5 years. It could have very easily gone the other way, and it amazes me how little context is considered before people make statements like the previous two posts.
As for FedEx, they are a long way from a new contract, and they will require at least a 34% raise at DOS to match our WB-A rate, assuming they get a deal in 2024. Something tells me that’s not in their cards, all things considered, and they will still lag by at least 7% when the dust settles. I wish them the best, and I hope they knock it out of the park with their TA2, but things are not nearly as rosy over there these days. Even as an “underpaid” 7ERA, I wouldn’t trade places with them for anything. As an aside, it’s also doubtful that their retro will come close to making them whole for the extended negotiating cycle, further compounding the problem.
They did effectively get a 20% DC in their failed TA, which is something. But they don’t get anything over the cap. I bet a Delta pilot receives more company money in a career at 18% with DC on all income than they will at 20% only on income up to the limit.
Last edited by First Break; 10-19-2023 at 05:58 PM.
10-21-2023, 01:42 PM
#1306
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Maddog FO
Posts: 653
You realize their blended wide body rate was about 7% LESS than our wide body rate PRIOR to our new contract. If all 350/330/764 pilots are cool with taking an 7% haircut, no doubt in my mind MGT would take that trade, considering relative fleet sizes and the fact the 767 is a dead frame walking.
And the 764/330/787 bone job that existed since the merger was fixed in C2019, and was a LONG time coming. How quickly some forget.
EDIT: A319/320 should be added to the list, and were brought up to 737 rates (where they should
have been all along) in this contract too. The only reason UA/AA now pay their 321neos the 757 rate is because DL got it first. They all paid the NEO significantly less prior to their recent deals, and DALPA did the whole industry a major solid by pushing the NEO rate as hard as they did, considering how prolific that airframe will be in the industry when we fast forward 5 years. It could have very easily gone the other way, and it amazes me how little context is considered before people make statements like the previous two posts.
As for FedEx, they are a long way from a new contract, and they will require at least a 34% raise at DOS to match our WB-A rate, assuming they get a deal in 2024. Something tells me that’s not in their cards, all things considered, and they will still lag by at least 7% when the dust settles. I wish them the best, and I hope they knock it out of the park with their TA2, but things are not nearly as rosy over there these days. Even as an “underpaid” 7ERA, I wouldn’t trade places with them for anything. As an aside, it’s also doubtful that their retro will come close to making them whole for the extended negotiating cycle, further compounding the problem.
They did effectively get a 20% DC in their failed TA, which is something. But they don’t get anything over the cap. I bet a Delta pilot receives more company money in a career at 18% with DC on all income than they will at 20% only on income up to the limit.
And the 764/330/787 bone job that existed since the merger was fixed in C2019, and was a LONG time coming. How quickly some forget.
EDIT: A319/320 should be added to the list, and were brought up to 737 rates (where they should
have been all along) in this contract too. The only reason UA/AA now pay their 321neos the 757 rate is because DL got it first. They all paid the NEO significantly less prior to their recent deals, and DALPA did the whole industry a major solid by pushing the NEO rate as hard as they did, considering how prolific that airframe will be in the industry when we fast forward 5 years. It could have very easily gone the other way, and it amazes me how little context is considered before people make statements like the previous two posts.
As for FedEx, they are a long way from a new contract, and they will require at least a 34% raise at DOS to match our WB-A rate, assuming they get a deal in 2024. Something tells me that’s not in their cards, all things considered, and they will still lag by at least 7% when the dust settles. I wish them the best, and I hope they knock it out of the park with their TA2, but things are not nearly as rosy over there these days. Even as an “underpaid” 7ERA, I wouldn’t trade places with them for anything. As an aside, it’s also doubtful that their retro will come close to making them whole for the extended negotiating cycle, further compounding the problem.
They did effectively get a 20% DC in their failed TA, which is something. But they don’t get anything over the cap. I bet a Delta pilot receives more company money in a career at 18% with DC on all income than they will at 20% only on income up to the limit.
As far as I understand, the “20% DC” in their failed TA included 9% DC and 11% MCBP (much lower returns I believe?). I’d take 18% DC all day long, not to mention the cash over cap as you say.
10-22-2023, 05:44 AM
#1307
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,588
FedEx has the 767-300 paid as a true widebody matching their 777, MD-11 & A300 pay. Why our 767-300 widebody international airplane gets paid narrowbody domestic rates is a little puzzling. Yeah there’s like 40 of them and they’re old so no negotiating capital yada yada, but it still doesn’t make sense.
The considerably higher rate on the 767-400 evolved through a process at the time known as 3B6. We used that process to beat the company up pretty good on the 737NG and 767-400 setting rates never seen before that became known as the Delta dot outside of normal section six negotiations. We attempted to use the 3B6 process for the 777 but let our greed get a bit far out there and the company opted to sell the airframes rather than meet our demands. In the end they sold half of the 16 firm orders and were in the process of selling the other 8 when we agreed to a rate slightly higher than the company opener and dramatically lower than our opener and saved those 8 airframes.
Much of this tied into the merger contract and why the 737 paid more than the 320 in the joint contract. In order to have a ratifiable contract both pilot sides had to see value in the agreement. NWA rates were lower than Delta rates so it was a given that a higher percentage needed to go to the NWA airframes. The question was how to you balance the cash available to get it ratified on the Delta side. With Delta already having our rates a bit skewed by what I posted above it made it hard to balance out the rates. What we ended up with was a compromise that would ratify with both pilot groups.
10-22-2023, 06:48 AM
#1308
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,149
Late in the process as we neared an agreement the company pushed a term sheet across the table that brought the 757 and others up to the 7ER rate. Our negotiators were a bit puzzled as nothing was asked for in return. Hard to turn down free money. Several people in the process were convinced it was a simple typo on the companies part but regardless it set a new standard for narrow body rates we have since patterned off to great advantage.
10-22-2023, 10:42 AM
#1309
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
You need to go back into contract history to understand how the rate structure evolved. In the 2001 contract we had multiple pay rates in the 767 category. The 757,767-200,767-300 and 767-300ER all had a different pay rates. We opened back then for an across the board pay rate increase plus a bit more for the MD88. Late in the process as we neared an agreement the company pushed a term sheet across the table that brought the 757 and others up to the 7ER rate. Our negotiators were a bit puzzled as nothing was asked for in return. Hard to turn down free money. Several people in the process were convinced it was a simple typo on the companies part but regardless it set a new standard for narrow body rates we have since patterned off to great advantage.
The considerably higher rate on the 767-400 evolved through a process at the time known as 3B6. We used that process to beat the company up pretty good on the 737NG and 767-400 setting rates never seen before that became known as the Delta dot outside of normal section six negotiations. We attempted to use the 3B6 process for the 777 but let our greed get a bit far out there and the company opted to sell the airframes rather than meet our demands. In the end they sold half of the 16 firm orders and were in the process of selling the other 8 when we agreed to a rate slightly higher than the company opener and dramatically lower than our opener and saved those 8 airframes.
Much of this tied into the merger contract and why the 737 paid more than the 320 in the joint contract. In order to have a ratifiable contract both pilot sides had to see value in the agreement. NWA rates were lower than Delta rates so it was a given that a higher percentage needed to go to the NWA airframes. The question was how to you balance the cash available to get it ratified on the Delta side. With Delta already having our rates a bit skewed by what I posted above it made it hard to balance out the rates. What we ended up with was a compromise that would ratify with both pilot groups.
The considerably higher rate on the 767-400 evolved through a process at the time known as 3B6. We used that process to beat the company up pretty good on the 737NG and 767-400 setting rates never seen before that became known as the Delta dot outside of normal section six negotiations. We attempted to use the 3B6 process for the 777 but let our greed get a bit far out there and the company opted to sell the airframes rather than meet our demands. In the end they sold half of the 16 firm orders and were in the process of selling the other 8 when we agreed to a rate slightly higher than the company opener and dramatically lower than our opener and saved those 8 airframes.
Much of this tied into the merger contract and why the 737 paid more than the 320 in the joint contract. In order to have a ratifiable contract both pilot sides had to see value in the agreement. NWA rates were lower than Delta rates so it was a given that a higher percentage needed to go to the NWA airframes. The question was how to you balance the cash available to get it ratified on the Delta side. With Delta already having our rates a bit skewed by what I posted above it made it hard to balance out the rates. What we ended up with was a compromise that would ratify with both pilot groups.
10-22-2023, 11:05 AM
#1310
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Position: UNA
Posts: 4,629
