MongoC5

if it’s a GFB they have to pay for the urgent care or whatever doc visit. As silly as it may seem, who cares, “hey Doc. Felt like crap. Company wants this signed”. If you’re sick you’re sick. If you’re not maybe you still are. Not any one person to judge. Sick doesn’t mean looking like Alf on the couch with a Kleenex… could be stress, mental, physical. Only oneself can truly judge it. That’s what makes us professionals, not staying under XYZ threshold.

Mongo

m3113n1a1

I know, but I'm just saying it is still extremely annoying and is definitely influencing whether people call out sick for marginal things or not. Even though I understand all the tough guy talk about just calling out sick (or fatigued).

2StgTurbine

Me... I care. the last 2 times I had to get a sick note were a real pain in the a$$. I felt terrible and the only thing I wanted to do was stay in bed, not drive to an urgent care facility, look for parking, wait in line, get a note filled out, upload it, and fill out an expense report. One of the times I had COVID, but the at-home test wasn't enough for the CP, so I had to go to a doctor 2 weeks later once my at-home test got rejected. I literally submitted a sick note 2 weeks after calling in sick. the note simply said, "the patient said they tested positive for COVID 2 weeks ago." What is the point of all this?

Big E 757

Fangs, you've always been a level headed poster on here. I've always liked reading your posts and comments. Sick leave abuse does happen. There are 17000 of us. We can't even imagine some of the shenanigans some Pilots have tried to pull. Mentioning a graph or chart that illustrates the rates of sick calls and spikes over weekends and holidays shouldn't send you to the dog house. Don't mind whoever that was that got twisted about it.

Supporting people that do stuff that causes the rest of us grief doesn't help anyone, I don't care if they're a pilot or not. (KCM random checks, anyone?) I've been randomed the last 7 attempts at KCM straight. If I ever meet the idiots trying to get through KCM with prohibited items....ugh it's frustrating. So is GFB calls, and sick notes. But if someone wasn't abusing the system, they wouldn't have these deterrents in the first place.

Big E 757

And who made you the Arbiter of Fangs "street cred"? Get over yourself. He's one of the most level headed, informative posters on here.

Unlike the snipers that come on here and don't add anything productive and just argue whatever point they feel like, which gets so freaking old. There is very little interesting or productive content on here anymore, but what little there is, Fangs is usually involved. Back off my guy, bruv! 😀

crewdawg

...like our management 🤣. We promise to not run hot again! What's a RLL (or whatever RG said while laughing about something they agreed to but never offered). It's not a violation until the arbitrator says so. If you vote no, you'll never get a better deal or the 737s are cancelled! Lol. I know I know, those 737 were cancelled and miraculously another deal resurfaced shortly after. I also get that the guy who made the arbitrator comment was moved, but let's not act like he just didn't say the quiet part out loud.



I know this doesn't fix the overall issue and I agree with your sentiment. However, I've had good luck in doing visits via video chat. Even did it for a covid visit. One of the nice things to come out of CV19, is that many offices started e-visits. My doc prefers it so I don't get other patients sick.



Yes it would. It's a deterrent and cost savings measure and I actually don't blame them for doing it. I'm guessing they find it to be an effective program. I mean, they negotiated a program to discourage its use. They fought state family sick leave. They hold a dude who likely flew sick/never called in, up on a pedestal as if it's something to attain.

I'm not advocating for burning every hour of sick leave, every year, I don't think I've even come close to 100 hours in any year. I'm also not saying that it's OK to bang out sick while sailing the Caribbean. But let's not act like this program is intended to target just the "abusers."

Herkflyr

It is a good question actually. Delta, for the many decades, has always had a far different sick model than the rest of the industry--even though in the vast, actuarial spreadsheet in the sky, taking the collective of all the many thousands of airline pilot careers across the industry, over time, the cost to the various airlines ends up about the same. Taking PTO out of the discussion, which is an entirely different discussion, airline sick leave policies have typically been one of two models.

1. Delta, where you get a far more generous allotment every year--as in multiples more generous--but it is a "use or lose" system and whatever you haven't used by the end of May goes away, to be replaced by a new, generous allotment.

2. Most of the rest of the industry, where you get a far lower, sparser annual allotment, but any leftover hours at the end of the sick year carry over to the next, etc. Over many years of a healthy career, a pilot could have quite an impressive balance of unused sick leave hours, which would come in very handy indeed in the event of a long term illness in your 50s or early 60s.

3. Delta's sick leave balance is probably better thought of as along the thought process of your car or homeowners' insurance (yes I know, it isn't a perfect analogy). Your homeowners insurance is never issued with the idea that you will submit claims on a routine basis, up to your policy limits, year after year--but those limits are there in the event that something bad happens. I think that Delta assumes that the typical pilot will call in sick 2-3 times a year. The actuarial model is not that everyone uses all 270 hours (for old guys like me) year after year--but those sick hours are there if you need them.

4. Depending on how often you get sick, the nature and length of it, and most importantly, when in your career a significant use of sick leave is needed, one model, Delta's or the rest of the industry's, may be better than the other. But it is like this airline career itself. You really can't tell if you made the right call as a new hire until you are actually looking at retirement and your career in retrospect. You cannot tell if Delta's system was better or worse for you personally except in career hindsight. I think, however, that collectively, the two systems end up costing their carriers about the same. It is a wash.

5. I actually asked a negotiator this question years ago. "Delta has a pretty good sick leave system, but so too does the rest of the industry, over the course of your career. Why has Delta always wanted this type of system?" The answer was "I don't really know, but I know that is the system they like, and that we have negotiated for years, and it isn't going to change much."

Now as to the Flight Ops obsession with sick leave use and GFB calls--that is a bit disturbing to be honest. My first question is, have GFB calls increased recently? If so that is BS, but that's another discussion.

CX500T

As a guy who has had many GFBs, you'd think after the first couple, they'd back off.

I haven't used under 100 hours of sick since I had it.
Some of it has been accidents (crashed dirtbike once, rear ended by a dump truck when stopped in traffic the other)
A fair amount has been illness. When I get a head cold it can become a 2 week no fly situation. Maybe every other year I get some sort of nasty head cold that's bad enough I'm out for 2 weeks. And usually they follow flying a trip with someone who was "ok" and had allergies.

The last round of 50+ hours of sick used (and cancelled two OE trips) was caused by Delta's own actions, by removing a SI required medication from the formulary, then taking three months to finally approve the only other medication that's FAA approved, which then had a two week no fly once I actually got it on hand.
Previously, what would have been maybe 6 weeks and 50 ish hours of sick (I got hurt on vacation) got dragged out into 140+ hours and 3 months because UMR/UHC/Uwhatever took a month to approve surgery for a broken collarbone. Which then went from a quick 1 hour "plate, 4 screws, 6 stitches, see ya in 2 weeks" to "healed incorrectly, re-break, pull you way open, remove previous plate, add in two plates, 14 screws, 30+ stitches and a month of rehab".

Once, maybe twice a year I have to take a medication that is 72 hour no fly once I take it. Sometimes that means a sick call, other times, they have no idea.

Viper25

I am honestly not sure why Fangs is getting any heat. Two things can be true at the same time:

1) GFB calls are bs

2) sick leave abusers exist

Is there really somebody out there who believes there are zero abusers? Ridiculous. Now that group of abusers is in the minority, but to say it doesn’t exist is insane.

No I am not in management, I am pro-pilot, I want all GFB calls to end, and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But if not being completely delusional about sick leave abusers makes me anti-pilot, then so be it.

crewdawg

I think there are very few, if any, pilots who would say there are zero abusers. I don't think anyone here is taking up the stance of zero abusers.