Originally Posted by PilotBases

God bless holiday pay. I'm getting a free 4 day trip for flying I'd have done for free under the old PWA. Soft pay sucks! I'm hoping someone junior to me is getting a day at home they might not have had, I have 0 qualms working the holiday days.

Originally Posted by gloopy

I'd still like to see either the pay tables (current book related) or the plane language of how it would play out.

LBP is simply never going to be free extra money for higher longevity (over 12 years) pilots. We're not going to trick the company or pull a fast one where they're left dumbstruck saying "wow we didn't think they'd to THAT!"

Pay tables would be a lot of work for a casual discussion. So let's just line item the main tenents of how it would play out today.

A350 pay for all? Where does that extra money come from?

ER pay for all? Will the seniors be OK with that? How about the under 12 year WB FO's?

Whatever the one rate to rule them all ends up being, unless its a concession from today's rates on average, where will the year 13-50 compounding yearly raises come from?

So will this be current tables, or A350 pay for all, with endless 1-2% raises for all years 13-50?

Will the company simply agree to it on the basis of some moral imperative and just shell out the endless longevity raises out of the stock buybacks and dividend reinvestments?

Would you be OK with taking an overall pay table cut to years 1-12, only to then harvest longevity raises to get back to your current pay rate?

If we do agree on "one rate to rule them all" wouldn't that drive somewhat fewer training events requiring less pilots requiring less SLI's being off line requiring less pilots? Would it further disincentivise the company from growing the bottom end of the fleets and further encourage them to "upgauge" also resulting in fewer pilots?

Is this really a moral imperative that you always advocate for, or do you think that because you are of a higher longevity that you will be making more as a result of LBP? If you make more, will anyone make less? Or will the company just agree to keep current book and give everyone over year 12 compounding raises for decades? How much would that cost and where will that extra money come out of?

LBP has been advocated on here for a very long time. Its time that those who push for it the loudest to show their work and explain what it would look like when the rubber meets the runway. No one is going to pre-agree to this broad concept and then try and figure it out after its irrevocably set into motion especially in a scenario where some get significant compounding raises over decades at the expense of anyone else.

So as a strong proponent of LBP, how would it play out in a way that is acceptable to you? Its time to show your work.

Originally Posted by JamesBond

I have been advocating for this for at least 15 years. I'm done trying to explain it. I'll leave you with this though. Over half the seniority list hasn't hit the max. Now is the time to do it, and since I have seen my last contract so I really couldn't care less what you do. But you are living the very definition of insanity by continuing to do what has always been done and then complaining when things go awry. Of course all the growth that you'll be exoeriencing over the next few years will mitigate all of this until the next recession. Then they will probably park the Ers overnight and there will be massive displacements. And you will know what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by Hotel Kilo

I may be wrong here, but weren't we the last major to get holiday pay? I thought AAL, UAL already had it? So in this case we just brought ourselves up to what the others had.

Originally Posted by Hotel Kilo

You all were also were blurting on here not so long ago that holiday pay would entice more seniors to bid holidays. Is that the case? Was your holiday trip a coverage award? Or did PBS just give it to you in blue? From my seat I don't see us seniors bidding holidays for the pay. Most are still doing what we've been doing for a long time - prefer off over the holidays, then green slip. Juniors are still getting tagged with holiday flying either thru coverage (unstacking) or thru straight PBS award. Now, couple that with higher rates and Bob's your uncle, and it benefits everyone etc etc etc.

Originally Posted by JamesBond

I have been advocating for this for at least 15 years. I'm done trying to explain it. I'll leave you with this though. Over half the seniority list hasn't hit the max. Now is the time to do it, and since I have seen my last contract so I really couldn't care less what you do. But you are living the very definition of insanity by continuing to do what has always been done and then complaining when things go awry. Of course all the growth that you'll be exoeriencing over the next few years will mitigate all of this until the next recession. Then they will probably park the Ers overnight and there will be massive displacements. And you will know what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by Hotel Kilo

They are drunk on "soft pay" James. Many that are with us now haven't seen a real downturn. I couldn't agree with you more about the massive displacements. That's when pay rates/LBP really help out. We're headed for another major downturn. Maybe then they will open their minds to what we've been talking about. But heck, what do we know anyway. Take care buddy have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Originally Posted by Hotel Kilo

I may be wrong here, but weren't we the last major to get holiday pay? I thought AAL, UAL already had it? So in this case we just brought ourselves up to what the others had. You all were also were blurting on here not so long ago that holiday pay would entice more seniors to bid holidays. Is that the case? Was your holiday trip a coverage award? Or did PBS just give it to you in blue? From my seat I don't see us seniors bidding holidays for the pay. Most are still doing what we've been doing for a long time - prefer off over the holidays, then green slip. Juniors are still getting tagged with holiday flying either thru coverage (unstacking) or thru straight PBS award. Now, couple that with higher rates and Bob's your uncle, and it benefits everyone etc etc etc.

Originally Posted by OOfff

so, no answers to the questions raised. And you claim to want nuanced conversation

Originally Posted by Gone Flying

soft pay is a good thing. It’s not everything but it’s huge. Just because it’s not what you wanted does not change that it is a win for a majority of the pilot group.

to your second point, on the flip side, if we had LBP and had a downturn, a displacement probably would not create the training cascade our current setup would. Management’s MOAD would have probably worked if it had been 1 pay rate because the bottom 10% of each category would have been around the same seniority and when they were displaced would have mostly been forced back to the right seat. Right now an 330A displaces to ER A which displaces an ER A back to the 320 which displaces a 320 A back to the 717 and so on.

delta was not able to shrink rapidly in 2020 down to 7,000 pilots like they wanted to because of the training backlog that displacement would have created, but if all CA seniority lists were similar like they would be under LBP they probably would have been able to.

Originally Posted by Hotel Kilo

They are drunk on "soft pay" James. Many that are with us now haven't seen a real downturn. I couldn't agree with you more about the massive displacements. That's when pay rates/LBP really help out. We're headed for another major downturn. Maybe then they will open their minds to what we've been talking about. But heck, what do we know anyway. Take care buddy have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.