gloopy

I'd still like to see either the pay tables (current book related) or the plane language of how it would play out.

LBP is simply never going to be free extra money for higher longevity (over 12 years) pilots. We're not going to trick the company or pull a fast one where they're left dumbstruck saying "wow we didn't think they'd to THAT!"

Pay tables would be a lot of work for a casual discussion. So let's just line item the main tenents of how it would play out today.

A350 pay for all? Where does that extra money come from?

ER pay for all? Will the seniors be OK with that? How about the under 12 year WB FO's?

Whatever the one rate to rule them all ends up being, unless its a concession from today's rates on average, where will the year 13-50 compounding yearly raises come from?

So will this be current tables, or A350 pay for all, with endless 1-2% raises for all years 13-50?

Will the company simply agree to it on the basis of some moral imperative and just shell out the endless longevity raises out of the stock buybacks and dividend reinvestments?

Would you be OK with taking an overall pay table cut to years 1-12, only to then harvest longevity raises to get back to your current pay rate?

If we do agree on "one rate to rule them all" wouldn't that drive somewhat fewer training events requiring less pilots requiring less SLI's being off line requiring less pilots? Would it further disincentivise the company from growing the bottom end of the fleets and further encourage them to "upgauge" also resulting in fewer pilots?

Is this really a moral imperative that you always advocate for, or do you think that because you are of a higher longevity that you will be making more as a result of LBP? If you make more, will anyone make less? Or will the company just agree to keep current book and give everyone over year 12 compounding raises for decades? How much would that cost and where will that extra money come out of?

LBP has been advocated on here for a very long time. Its time that those who push for it the loudest to show their work and explain what it would look like when the rubber meets the runway. No one is going to pre-agree to this broad concept and then try and figure it out after its irrevocably set into motion especially in a scenario where some get significant compounding raises over decades at the expense of anyone else.

So as a strong proponent of LBP, how would it play out in a way that is acceptable to you? Its time to show your work.

myrkridia

Re-reading our conversation I see where we missed each other. Yes I'm advocating for a single longevity based pay scale (one FO and one CA) based on our WB rates. ER rates or similar for everyone would be viewed as a concession and I think rightfully so. As to how something like that would be implemented, yes the devil is in the details. I could see some kind of aggressive increase in category freezes for some time with a decrease after an expiration date. There the argument would be it's a higher price tag but there are short term contractual savings from training costs and long term potentially from bidding behavior.

Gone Flying

if that’s the case sign me up. I think the benefits of that would certainly outweigh the drawbacks.

With that said I’m not sure if DL management would have any interest in this, but you never know.

Forgotmyhat

Too many words!!!
😵‍💫

Scoop

Anyone ever figure out the deal with holiday pay? I know we got an email saying the company knows it does not show on time cards even though it's in the bid packages.

I am curious if Holiday pay is treated as credit and paid on the last day of a trip or since it's pay and no credit is it different.

For example would a trip from 31 Dec to 02 Jan pay all the holiday pay in Jan or 5:15 in Dec and 5:15 in Jan?

Since we are now our own personal auditors we should know this.

Scoop

CruJones

Holiday pay for both 12/31 and 1/1 are both on my Jan time card. It’ll take until 2/15 to figure out if the pay rate s get applied correctly.

First Break

In C1996, Conflicting trips were paid from your vacation bank. In other words, you were robbing from future vacation pay if your conflicted trips had a higher value than the week of vacation. C1996 did in fact have 6 weeks after 25 years of service, with a total bank value of 147:00, or 3:30 per day.

Going back to C1990, there was a 7th week after 30 years of service, but conflicting trips were paid for the primary vacation only. Otherwise, the daily rate was 2:30 for a line holder, and 2:15-2:25 for a reserve depending on the number of days in a month.

For reference, C2019 will have a bank value of 160:25 for anyone with 16 years of service, which is a high water mark for total vacation value at Delta.

Beware of revisionist history lessons.

It’s a valid debate as to more weeks versus higher daily credit.

One man’s opinion, but vacation daily value is far more powerful than additional vacation days, assuming the total value is equal.

Higher daily value applies to everyone, and an added side effect is it allows maximum schedule flexibility in months with vacation.

For example: 2 weeks of vacation worth 2:15 per day only leaves a 2 week window to fly the remaining credit for the month. 1 week of vacation worth 4:30 per day provides the same amount of time off as the previous scenario, but allows a 3 week window to bid the remaining flying. Either scenario ends up with exactly the same amount of flying and days off in the bid month.

FangsF15

That's a great point. For those with only 2 or 3 weeks of vacation, a higher vacation daily value is absolutely better before maxing out the weeks. Which benefits far more people, especially with almost 1/3 of the list with only 2 weeks, and ~60% with only 3.

I guess it's an academic argument, but a good one.

PilotBases

God bless holiday pay. I'm getting a free 4 day trip for flying I'd have done for free under the old PWA. Soft pay sucks! I'm hoping someone junior to me is getting a day at home they might not have had, I have 0 qualms working the holiday days.

UGBSM

Hol pay for both 12/31 and 1/1 are on my Dec timecard for my Dec redeye carryout trip. And Hol pay for my late report Jan 1/1 trip is on my Jan timecard. Shows up as additional pay (no credit) on my timecards.