tennisguru

Some guys just can't grasp that lots of pilots would rather makes less overall while having better rotations. Yes, we could make more if we didn't have EDP and instead plowed that into higher rates. But now that we have EDP many rotations have improved, improving the time we have to spend at work. And in those instances where things stretch out, either planned or unplanned, we get paid extra for it. Other guys would rather be beaten like dogs at work, but make more money accross the board due to higher rates. That's ok too but by and large those pilots are in the minority.

OOfff

the second group (hk) are largely on widebodies and aren’t actually affected by the NB rotations.

crewdawg

On the flip side, there are quite a few NB pilot in which, the new rules haven't changed their trips at all. So not only did they not get improved rotations, they don't really see EDP/Sit pay and some didn't even get the benefit of a better banding and/or better trip mix (1 and 2 day rotations). I'm all for soft pay items, but it's not just WB pilots who aren't seeing an improvment from this.

Iceberg

Being senior is a choice. Go try out the more junior end of your category, you’ll see more softpay.

Gone Flying

counterpoint.

we always talk here about delta and their obsession with “optics”. How much did “what’s a SIL” cost them again?

delta is trying to keep several unions off property right now. Both parties know this. DAL seemed to dig their heels in on pay rates because it’s easily quantified and can be used in other union drives. “look at those pilots, they got a 30% raise, you can too if you vote in AFA/TWU/ whoever else” they also have investors to please. As far as anyone on wall st. or any non cons were concerned, we just got an 18% raise, not all the other stuff. (Now 20% thanks to the snap up from UAL)

For the above reason id be willing to bet the value increase we go across all sections was significantly more than if all we did was pour all our negotiating capital into section 3.

on top of that, we dramatically improved the domestic rotations. HK, I really don’t know where you keep getting this idea that NB rotations have not changed from, but that is categorically false. And if they go back to the way they were it will probably mean another 20% pay raise on top of whatever rates were.

you are certainly entitled to your opinion that the only thing that matters is section 3, but the totality of improvements from c2019 are FAR more substantial than you seem to want to acknowledge.

my pay rate may be 20% higher, but I’m probably marking closer to 25-30% more than I was before working a much easier schedule. I think that is an absolute win.

crewdawg

Just looked at the most junior line holder with a full line of Jan flying. He has 0.02 of sit and 0.00 of EDP. The most junior line holder has 0.41 of sit and 0.00 of EDP. In fairnes, I just picked another guy at random at around 70% and he has two hours of EDP/sit pay, something that would have been eclipsed by an additional 2% raise. The fact they they're getting the pay, means the rotations are still being built as before, so it didn't really change much anyway.

tennisguru

That means the provisions are working out as planned. No long sits and no long duty days. QOL over higher pay rates.

crewdawg

But what I'm saying is that in my category, the rotations haven't really changed. The few trips with the extra pay were being built before this contract and are still being built. The only thing "working" is a few more dollars for a few pilots. A few more percent pay raise would have had the same impact, except all the pilots would benefit. Like I said, I'm not a rates only guy, I'm just not seeing much of an impact in my category. I think we'd all have gladly given that up to be banded with the 220, as well as being brought in on the 1/2 day trip mix would have been an added benefit.

FangsF15

The fact you aren't seeing much in the way of SIT or EDP means your rotations don't suck. The fact you aren't seeing much of a change means they didn't suck before. That's kind of like complaining you don't see the CARVE pay, when you never got in after midnight anyway?

Not every quid in the contract will benefit eveyone all the time. That said, I'd be all for spending some negotiating capital to band the 717/220 together, and the 73N/320 up to the 7ER/NEO/(-Max?) pay rates. Make it simple.

Scoop

After reading the last few pages on this thread I'll admit ................. I agree with all of you. Soft pay increases are great, glad we got em. Pay rate increases are great, glad we got em. Could we have have put more priority on one than another - yes, in an infinite number of ways.

Our NC guys did a great job! Was it perfect - No. I would have liked to have seen a 6th week of vacation vs faster accrual. A 6th week would benefit everyone, faster accrual does jack squat for those already with 5 weeks. Yet despite this huge wart I still voted yes. I was thinking about voting "No" so I could pound my chest and berate the majority of Pilots I fly with but that sounded too tiring.

Scoop