marcal

On the topic of evacs, the book QF32 by Qantas CA Richard de Crispigny has a very detailed decision explaining why he DID NOT evac with fuel pouring out of his wing in the very close proximity of brakes that were at over 900C. Highly recommend reading it. There was no fire, but the conditions certainly could have warranted an evac.

Trip7

Thanks for the recommendation. Sounds intriguing. I'll definitely give it a read

Hotel Kilo

So what about your magical 3 minutes then? When you expand the team but now the fire has move up your strut to the wing. Are you a trained ARFF Chief/Instructor? Can you predict the burn pattern of a fire - which any expert will attest its very difficult to know just how they will propagate. The only predictable thing about fire is its unpredictability. Things can get very ugly in <3 minutes. Have you seen atomized hydraulic fluid combust? You're glitching like Windows XP here. You are in the left seat at our air line, YOU make your own decision Trip. You're the one that has to live with it. I've made mine. I'll be happy to defend it at any inquiry. Calling others out for what they would do is wrong though.

About Qantas - no one said he was on fire. That is a very clear distinction in our discussion here. Dumping fuel like that, yeah I would have evacuated that jet.

Trip7

3 min is the ICAO standard for ARFF response time. In less than 3 minutes there will be additional info. During that time more information can be gathered. Talk to the FAs, get an update on the status of the cabin. Is there smoke in the cabin? There are situations where it is safer for the pax to remain in the cabin. Overall, the raging debate here is flames from brakes an automatic evacuate? It’s a No for me. I need to more info before evacuating.

If flames have expanded up the strut I’m evacuating.However, the chances of that happening before ARFF has arrived is slim to none for just a simple brake fire

CX500T

I'm pretty much with HK here.

Ive been in an aircraft on fire..

Ive been badly burnt.

I've pulled the burnt bodies out of a wreck.

There's a actual fire they can see from the tower? Time to GTFO.

I'll buy the potential injuries to not have to see people burn to death in front of me again.

-Delta A320 Captain

Extenda

this is a good discussion and I’ve found myself thinking about it all day.

I’d probably lean on the side of “spend 30 seconds or a minute to see if I can gather some more info from the FAs or ATC.”

any “worse” news from either after they gave me the initial “you have a fire”, I’d probably call the evac before the trucks got there.

It would be a lonnnnng 3 minutes if I decided to wait though, regardless.

FangsF15

You might not be wrong to wait to order an evacuation.

You are definitely not wrong to order an evacuation (barring a glaringly obvious reason to wait).

I’m reminded of a quote on the back cover of an AF publication issued to UPT students called “Road to Wings”, from a long time ago filled with vignettes of various mishaps. It is permanently applicable:

m3113n1a1

I feel the same way. I did find it interesting that they showed us that SLC 767 engine fire where they didn't evacuate in indoc. It kind of put the idea in my (and others I'm sure) head that we have time in a fire situation and that not evacuating is preferable to Delta. I don't think this was their intent, but if someone doesn't evacuate immediately and people get burned, I think the captain having been shown this video in indoc as a shining example of what to do might raise a few eyebrows with the FAA.

badflaps

There usta be a safety film about low blood sugar and reaction time. Somebody pointed out that with their early departures, DAL is king of glycemia. The film disappeared.........

notEnuf

The evacuation certification times are industry standard too. In a controlled environment with willing participants and no real emergency. Good thing your passengers will listen to your command because now they will be off the airplane in 90 seconds and there’s no way they will be in danger after four and a half minutes when you make your instantaneous decision and announced your command. The SLC incident lasted 8 plus minutes while they gathered information and never resulted in an evacuation. They had an uncontainable magnesium fire and they were aware of it before AARF was on site. They blew both bottles and couldn’t control it in flight. They had no ability to affect the situation, except remove the people from the danger. This is text book for how not to handle the situation. The best we can do is learn from this and somehow it is held up as evidence of great watch winding and situational awareness. Only in bizarro world​​​​​. Aren’t you the one who said hope isn’t a strategy? How long are you waiting for your information and what do you do when the response is placating your intent not to act? Tick …tick …tick. 40 seconds after stopping the SLC jet has a flash over and your single first truck is still 2 plus minutes away.