Pilot morale
#211
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,610
Many are using the optimizer as a scapegoat. IMO it's overblown. The main reason for the degradation in trips are a lethal combination of poor staffing, RJ flying upgauging to Mainline, and reduction of fleet mix/fleet simplification caused by retirement of 88, parking of many 717s. Many 737/320/7ER pilots are simply not used to operating the amount of legs we do now. Heck even the 717 back in the day with a LAX base had very nice trips with no more than 3 legs a day. When the plane was moved back east the schedules turned the jet into CRJ200 2.0.
It's a shock factor. Folks need to get used to it because it's not going to get better anytime soon as the Regionals collapse. Take your time, wind the clock, you're too tired to fly, call in fatigued.
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It's a shock factor. Folks need to get used to it because it's not going to get better anytime soon as the Regionals collapse. Take your time, wind the clock, you're too tired to fly, call in fatigued.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
Another thing not mentioned that has also had a impact. Every time we get a contractual improvement it will effect rotation construction. As we attempt to drive the rotation construction to higher time trips and fewer days worked rotation quality will decrease. We once had decent 3 and 4 day trips but very short layovers. Often 9 hours from block in to block out. We demanded and got 8 hours behind the door and eventually the current rules. The company could no longer reliably schedule crews into out stations at night and back out in the morning. The result was 30 hour layovers. We hated the poor pay on trips with 30 hour layovers so we demanded and got a daily minimum. This forces the company to really have to pack the flying in around the long layovers or pay a severe credit penalty.
#212
Many are using the optimizer as a scapegoat. IMO it's overblown. The main reason for the degradation in trips are a lethal combination of poor staffing, RJ flying upgauging to Mainline, and reduction of fleet mix/fleet simplification caused by retirement of 88, parking of many 717s. Many 737/320/7ER pilots are simply not used to operating the amount of legs we do now. Heck even the 717 back in the day with a LAX base had very nice trips with no more than 3 legs a day. When the plane was moved back east the schedules turned the jet into CRJ200 2.0.
It's a shock factor. Folks need to get used to it because it's not going to get better anytime soon as the Regionals collapse. Take your time, wind the clock, you're too tired to fly, call in fatigued.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
It's a shock factor. Folks need to get used to it because it's not going to get better anytime soon as the Regionals collapse. Take your time, wind the clock, you're too tired to fly, call in fatigued.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
But the true root cause for why it will not get better is because Flight Ops leadership cannot allow more credit into the optimizer mix, or they will be fired.
Pilot staffing is THE limiting factor for the airline growing back and capturing revenue. The summer 2023 plan was recently planned by network to notably exceed 2019’s schedule. With the VEOP and 500 retirements a year, we would have to hire probably 1500 more pilots than we can possibly onboard, even at a record 200/month (and even then, they can’t train what they are hiring). Flight Ops said “no f-ing way” we can do that, so network is pushing them to pull out all the stops…
As a result, every pilot hired simply goes to increase the schedule, not for staffing relief. There won’t be relief until after summer of 2023, when hiring can finally start to allow a “pad” again. Network is pushing flight Ops to max-fly every single month, and if JL and gang ease off the gas, they will lose their jobs.
I don’t say any of this to make excuses for management. On the contrary, their I’ll-advised decisions got us here, and they refuse to even acknowledge it much less address it . But understanding where we are is key to understanding when it will (or won’t) get better. I’ll walk the picket line with fervor, but tactically it won’t change a dang thing. Strategically, however, we can be shaping the battlefield on multiple fronts.
#213
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 2,370
I expected him to say "yes, this is legal, but in my opinion, you should call in fatigued."
I'm glad to see that the duty pilots won't help us make the tough decisions. Maybe, just maybe, I was looking for guidance. Instead, I was essentially threatened with "fly it, you're legal." Very regional-esque. But fine. Next time I'll just call fatigued. And when there's a threatening follow up, I'll say "Breezy says there's no gray area, even though I might be legal for it."
I'm glad to see that the duty pilots won't help us make the tough decisions. Maybe, just maybe, I was looking for guidance. Instead, I was essentially threatened with "fly it, you're legal." Very regional-esque. But fine. Next time I'll just call fatigued. And when there's a threatening follow up, I'll say "Breezy says there's no gray area, even though I might be legal for it."
#214
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 2,370
#215
Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 107
So all of these complaints about the optimizer and the very tough schedules since it’s inception; unfortunately I haven’t followed what it is or the specifics of what it did. But based on its name, it’s obvious. Will there be any changes? Or is this a management tool that will make them happy and pilots miserable but with no recourse?
I’m sure it’s always worth it to leave the regionals for a legacy. How about a ULCC like Frontier/Spirit? I think it’s a no-brainer and am of the “first legacy to call” mindset. Am I wrong?
I’m sure it’s always worth it to leave the regionals for a legacy. How about a ULCC like Frontier/Spirit? I think it’s a no-brainer and am of the “first legacy to call” mindset. Am I wrong?
#216
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,535
So all of these complaints about the optimizer and the very tough schedules since it’s inception; unfortunately I haven’t followed what it is or the specifics of what it did. But based on its name, it’s obvious. Will there be any changes? Or is this a management tool that will make them happy and pilots miserable but with no recourse?
I’m sure it’s always worth it to leave the regionals for a legacy. How about a ULCC like Frontier/Spirit? I think it’s a no-brainer and am of the “first legacy to call” mindset. Am I wrong?
I’m sure it’s always worth it to leave the regionals for a legacy. How about a ULCC like Frontier/Spirit? I think it’s a no-brainer and am of the “first legacy to call” mindset. Am I wrong?
#217
Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 107
Less than 20, but also only been there for 6 months. Legacy wasn’t an option a year ago. Either way, it wouldn’t be a commute and would actually save me 40 minutes. I think reserves will get crushed at every airline this summer. Who knows if upgrades will stay at 4-5 years, especially if the merger is less than smooth. Currently stagnant because of attrition. And last but not least, flight benefits. I know they are virtually useless these days because of how flights are consistently oversold. But with 4 kids in college over the next 10 years, that could be big savings. Point to point benefits are so much less useful than hub and spoke.
#218
Promising update from today MEC News:
"Section 11 (Training) and Section XX (LCP/SLI): After an extensive negotiation that commenced prior to the pandemic, these sections are now closed. The agreement contains industry-best training pay provisions with significant increases to qualification training pay, CQ pay, and distance learning pay, as well as improved pay protection for pilots awaiting training"
So not just SLIs/LCPs getting big increases but also big, industry best, training pay increases for line pilots.
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"Section 11 (Training) and Section XX (LCP/SLI): After an extensive negotiation that commenced prior to the pandemic, these sections are now closed. The agreement contains industry-best training pay provisions with significant increases to qualification training pay, CQ pay, and distance learning pay, as well as improved pay protection for pilots awaiting training"
So not just SLIs/LCPs getting big increases but also big, industry best, training pay increases for line pilots.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
#219
Promising update from today MEC News:
"Section 11 (Training) and Section XX (LCP/SLI): After an extensive negotiation that commenced prior to the pandemic, these sections are now closed. The agreement contains industry-best training pay provisions with significant increases to qualification training pay, CQ pay, and distance learning pay, as well as improved pay protection for pilots awaiting training"
So not just SLIs/LCPs getting big increases but also big training pay increases for line pilots.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
"Section 11 (Training) and Section XX (LCP/SLI): After an extensive negotiation that commenced prior to the pandemic, these sections are now closed. The agreement contains industry-best training pay provisions with significant increases to qualification training pay, CQ pay, and distance learning pay, as well as improved pay protection for pilots awaiting training"
So not just SLIs/LCPs getting big increases but also big training pay increases for line pilots.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
#220
Promising update from today MEC News:
"Section 11 (Training) and Section XX (LCP/SLI): After an extensive negotiation that commenced prior to the pandemic, these sections are now closed. The agreement contains industry-best training pay provisions with significant increases to qualification training pay, CQ pay, and distance learning pay, as well as improved pay protection for pilots awaiting training"
So not just SLIs/LCPs getting big increases but also big, industry best, training pay increases for line pilots.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
"Section 11 (Training) and Section XX (LCP/SLI): After an extensive negotiation that commenced prior to the pandemic, these sections are now closed. The agreement contains industry-best training pay provisions with significant increases to qualification training pay, CQ pay, and distance learning pay, as well as improved pay protection for pilots awaiting training"
So not just SLIs/LCPs getting big increases but also big, industry best, training pay increases for line pilots.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
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