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Old 04-01-2023, 12:43 PM
  #3701  
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Originally Posted by gloopy
For your first question, correct. I do think that.

For your second question, I never said that only military pilots should be exempt from playing sodoku with one hand and Pong with the other silliness.

I don't think there is any significant value from it. What tiny correlation that may exist in theory could maybe apply to pilot backgrounds where there is far less consistency.

If you hauiled checks at night single engine IFR with no autopilot, then flew turboprops then jets at a regional, then went to a LCC or Part 135 job, all with structured 121/135 training programs, I don't see the value in having to prove you have a scan or whatever its supposed to do.

However, if someone comes from a background with way less structure like Part 91 King Airs or Slowtations where its common for there to be 2 pilots logging PIC in single pilot AC (but the "insurance" requires it! LOL!) then ok, I guess there may be a case for that. Pilots from backgrounds where there is way less consistency and QC in training can be more widely distributed so if a company really wants to motor skills/cog test for that there's at least some logic behind the intent.

BTW that doesn't mean any given pilot from Part 91 flying isn't awesome. They may be the best pilot in the world. Or they may have warmed the right seat of a single pilot King Air dual logging as PIC.

But for most pilots I don't see the point in it. For military pilots, I really don't see the point in it. Not because they are better pilots. Just because to get through that training and fly for the typical 8-20+ years, the consistency of meeting the minimum standard required to do so far outweighs anything the silly cog test reveals.

Its worth nothing that no part of the process is perfect. Every airline has their "one percenters" (flying skills and personality) and every airline has turned down great pilots with great personalities that end up having stellar careers at other airlines.

Its also funny that those defending the cog test aren't also screaming to the high heavens to bring back a sim eval. I don't see a whole lot of value in that either to screen most pilots BTW. But the cog test is just silly. To even get to the point of being competitive for a DL pilot interview, even at the lower end of time/experience, far outweighs some pre-abinitio "right stuff" aptitude test.

Now, if someone wants to make the point that they know its silly, but by making it a requirement you creat a motivational hoop for people to have to jump through (most pilots literally prep for that exact test) then OK, I guess there's some embedded HR personality "soft skill" type stuff behind it. Yea its silly, but maybe it screens people who will do silly things for silly reasons simply beause its asked of them.

Does that justify its existance? IMO no, but at least acknowledging it in that context makes more sense than actually thinking tests like that really screen for pilot potential among already highly qualified pilots.
The cog test replaced the sim eval, the idea being it was a better comparison since invariably some pilots either flew the same type aircraft the sim was in or had to spend a lot of money if they wanted to get time in one.

Everyone gets that you think military pilots' skills are not to be questioned or tested in an interview. Delta disagrees. You did finally admit that you don't like skills tests unless they are for pilots you deem to have not demonstrated appropriate skill levels in their background, but you are fine with it for them. So shouldn't a military pilot be able to pass the same tests as a pilot from a dual pilot kingair?

You'd have a better result just saying you think the test is too hard, which I think many on here would agree it's quite difficult. Of course we don't know what part anyone actually failed either.
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Old 04-01-2023, 12:52 PM
  #3702  
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Originally Posted by gloopy
For your first question, correct. I do think that.

For your second question, I never said that only military pilots should be exempt from playing sodoku with one hand and Pong with the other silliness.

I don't think there is any significant value from it. What tiny correlation that may exist in theory could maybe apply to pilot backgrounds where there is far less consistency.

If you hauiled checks at night single engine IFR with no autopilot, then flew turboprops then jets at a regional, then went to a LCC or Part 135 job, all with structured 121/135 training programs, I don't see the value in having to prove you have a scan or whatever its supposed to do.

However, if someone comes from a background with way less structure like Part 91 King Airs or Slowtations where its common for there to be 2 pilots logging PIC in single pilot AC (but the "insurance" requires it! LOL!) then ok, I guess there may be a case for that. Pilots from backgrounds where there is way less consistency and QC in training can be more widely distributed so if a company really wants to motor skills/cog test for that there's at least some logic behind the intent.

BTW that doesn't mean any given pilot from Part 91 flying isn't awesome. They may be the best pilot in the world. Or they may have warmed the right seat of a single pilot King Air dual logging as PIC.

But for most pilots I don't see the point in it. For military pilots, I really don't see the point in it. Not because they are better pilots. Just because to get through that training and fly for the typical 8-20+ years, the consistency of meeting the minimum standard required to do so far outweighs anything the silly cog test reveals.

Its worth nothing that no part of the process is perfect. Every airline has their "one percenters" (flying skills and personality) and every airline has turned down great pilots with great personalities that end up having stellar careers at other airlines.

Its also funny that those defending the cog test aren't also screaming to the high heavens to bring back a sim eval. I don't see a whole lot of value in that either to screen most pilots BTW. But the cog test is just silly. To even get to the point of being competitive for a DL pilot interview, even at the lower end of time/experience, far outweighs some pre-abinitio "right stuff" aptitude test.

Now, if someone wants to make the point that they know its silly, but by making it a requirement you creat a motivational hoop for people to have to jump through (most pilots literally prep for that exact test) then OK, I guess there's some embedded HR personality "soft skill" type stuff behind it. Yea its silly, but maybe it screens people who will do silly things for silly reasons simply beause its asked of them.

Does that justify its existance? IMO no, but at least acknowledging it in that context makes more sense than actually thinking tests like that really screen for pilot potential among already highly qualified pilots.
again so many words to excuse exempting only certain pilots you personally prefer from an equal evaluation approach to hiring.
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Old 04-01-2023, 03:20 PM
  #3703  
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Had anyone heard how many pilots they plan on hiring the rest of this year and next year?
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Old 04-01-2023, 04:08 PM
  #3704  
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Originally Posted by Notarealpilot
Had anyone heard how many pilots they plan on hiring the rest of this year and next year?
Slowing hiring during the summer months. 100-150 maybe? Supposed to go to 200 again in the fall. No word on when that will dial back. Given how short we already are before summer even starts we need at least 12 more months of ramped up hiring.
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Old 04-01-2023, 05:33 PM
  #3705  
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FWIW I can’t imagine much emphasis being placed on much of the mind games. I’d guess the only real part evaluated is the personality section at the end. I totally bombed sudoku portion, crashed the flying plane (mouse was wigging out), pretty sure at least 50% of my RMI questions were answered incorrectly, and took a bit to get a good rhythm going on the multi task……

Still got an invite. Now haven’t interviewed yet and I could still get a TBNT based on the scores if they compile them with your interview. But as poorly as I performed on the mind games I wasn’t at all expecting an interview invite.
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Old 04-01-2023, 06:10 PM
  #3706  
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Originally Posted by Notarealpilot
Had anyone heard how many pilots they plan on hiring the rest of this year and next year?
2000 pilots in 2023 (about 600 of those already on property in Q1), then numbers "stabilizing" come 2024.
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Old 04-02-2023, 10:09 AM
  #3707  
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Originally Posted by Verdell
2000 pilots in 2023 (about 600 of those already on property in Q1), then numbers "stabilizing" come 2024.
Considering the state of the 737 and 320 fleets, I think it’ll take longer than that to “stabilize”
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Old 04-02-2023, 02:02 PM
  #3708  
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Originally Posted by OOfff
again so many words to excuse exempting only certain pilots you personally prefer from an equal evaluation approach to hiring.
I hope you realize that when you’re debating with the Gloopster you’re basically arguing with a chatGPT bot - lots of words, very little substance.
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Old 04-02-2023, 03:58 PM
  #3709  
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Originally Posted by OOfff
again so many words to excuse exempting only certain pilots you personally prefer from an equal evaluation approach to hiring.
I don't see much value in those silly "tests" for anyone. But if we're heck bent on justifying them, then any shred of applicability could maybe be justified to the very few backgrounds and experience levels where there is the least consistency.

But sure, let's keep justifying the silliness. Bring back the age 30ish and 20/20 vision requirements while we're at it. 3 hour build me an airplane orals. Back in my day a hamburger cost a nickel.
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Old 04-02-2023, 04:02 PM
  #3710  
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Originally Posted by gloopy
Bring back the age 30ish and 20/20 vision requirements while we're at it. 3 hour build me an airplane orals. Back in my day a hamburger cost a nickel.
Don't remember the nickel hamburger, but the rest of it??? Spot on.

Man you are old Gramps

edit. Did the 747 with an engine failure at the NW interview. Being a single engine, single seat guy that was "different". Must have done OK cause I got a CJO there too. but one does walk away going "Hmmm, what did that accomplish other than weeding out the 'ole arsehole or someone with a "God" complex.
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