dhust27

Long time reader, first time poster..

ATL:
320 - 4
73N - 2
717 - 3
7ER - 6

DTW:
320 - 3
73N - 2
717 - 3

NYC:
320 - 8
73N - 4
7ER - 6
765 - 2
220 - 4

LAX:
73N - 2

Margaritaville

Yeah I get it. Went right over may head because of my history with the person behind the CBreezy/OOfff accounts.

OOfff

imagine letting us me live rent free in your head

CBreezy

It's almost amazing that I get to live aren't free in your head

KnownTraveler

If you're a new hire, but an old guy (48) how do you navigate the initial bid?

My case:
48 years old (17 years left)
Live close to MCO (will always commute from there)
8xxx series SSN - so I think that helps bidding initially
Goal: Maximize income over 17 years, while minimizing commutes (1-2 trips per month [even if they're longer] is better than 3-4 trips per month).

I hear 73, 7ER, 765 are now doable bids as a new hire. I have no idea what life is actually like on any of those.

ATL seems like the obvious choice commuting from MCO. But is it?

I have a dream: Be gone 10-12 days per month - make captain pay within 5-6 years. Don't care about weekends, red-eyes, etc. (no kids at home). Biggest thing is fewer trips. Length of trips, not an issue. I'd rather do 12 days on, 20 off. Instead of 3 on, 5 off. Don't know if that's even a thing at DAL.

Am I dreaming too big? What bids make the most sense for that? Reminder: only 17 years before I'm out.

Any thoughts would help - even if you just want to make fun of me - witty jokes welcome.

Thanks.

MoonShot

You won’t have a ton of control as a new hire. I’d imagine ATL would be the best commute from MCO, but there’s a lot of competition. Maybe a MCO-ATL commuter could chime in. A lot will depend on if we keep positive space commuting or not (set to expire in NOV).

Ive always commuted and prioritized fewer commutes also. I’ve commuted to ATL, CVG, DTW, and MSP some bases multiple different times. I’ve been on a variety of aircraft. My take home message would be that it will be easier to do what you are looking to do in a large category (pilots per seat in a specific base). The more trips in the “pool” available, the more combinations you can make to do a 3&3 or 4&3 day back to back. You have to consider PWA and FAR rest rules, so most likely you’ll be changing your schedule after the initial bid to try and back trips up and minimize your commutes. It’d be very hard to bid them on PBS as a junior pilot. 10-12 days is on the light side. Unless you happen to be in a category that is “fat” pilots, it’s hard to drop down that low as a new guy. I’d plan 12-14 days to be more realistic with the knowledge that some months it’ll be 15-16.

International fleets traditionally do longer trips (7+ days), but the last two years have been so jacked up it’s hard to know what will be a new normal going forward. In any case, that would take much more seniority. With regards to 5-6 year captain pay, who knows. We just had a bid that essentially placed new hires in the left seat. The QOL for that pilot isn’t going to correlate to what you’re describing you want to do though. We’ve hired a lot of pilots in the last 8 years, so movement could slow considerably when those pilots finally decide to move upward. Even though we had a bid where we had 3 month captains, less than two years ago we had a bid where the junior captain systemwide was 12+ years on property. Just an illustration to prove how volatile the airlines are.

Good luck.

Gone Flying

hi again, if you want to maximize time in MCO I would avoid the 765, because you will likely be on reserve for awhile and that is 16-18 days a month.

based on what you have said NYC7ER would probably be my top choice as it offers a large variety in flying/ trip lengths and should offer the best balance of pay/ seniority progression/ longer trips. Added perk is for the last several years, the ER has done the lions share of MCO flying (which translates to overnights at home) but this part is subject to change at marketing whims.

Atl makes the most sense geographically but is one of our most senior bases, you will likely not have the schedule flexibility to drop down to 10-12 days a month for quite awhile there vs NY will probably give you more flexibility sooner.

right now we don’t have trips longer than 5 days outside of the WB flying (which is senior)

5-6 years from now you will probably be able to hold a comfortable schedule maybe only working 11-13 days a month. You also will probably be able to hold CA, at least in NY, but I would bet you will not be able to do both.

an average line here is built 12-16 days a month. To reliably be on the lower end of that spectrum you will need some seniority which you would not have if you chase upgrade.

DWC CAP10 USAF

NB 737 and 320 have five day trips and you could make Capt in < 5. Downside is 2 x 5 day trips won’t be commutable on both ends….most likely commutable on one end, but they will pay 52:30.

if you want longer than 5 days trips to help cut down on the number of commutes, you will need WB, but you won’t be left seat in 5 years.

Yes yuu could make ER left seat in 5, but most likely you will get domestic trips, so now you are back to the 737/320 issues described above.

gloopy

Correct. You should get your first pick in all likelihood. Second pick worst case.

You've reiterated this theme a couple times so I'll assume that while you'll be a commuter by choice for the remainder, you don't like actually commuting and want to minimize the number of commutes

With that said, pretty much all NB positions will suck more often than a WB. However there is a huge caveat to that. You can bid reserve and stack your days on together to 1 or 2 commutes even in narrowbody categories and only have 1-2 commutes a month once you get even a little BES seniority which should come quick. Obviously that would require some arranged accommodation at your expense but there are many options i.e. a nicer than average pad or even small apartment. Then when you get more seniority you can build compressed lines with bigger gaps off.

With that said, don't fret too much about commutes as a baseline assumption. A good line with 3-4 commutes is often much better than 1-2 commutes but getting destroyed for 2 weeks straight. If PS commuting remains that really takes the edge off and I predict it quickly won't be your biggest concern anymore. Without PS commuting I still predict it won't be as big of a concern in time. If you are committed to 17 years of commuting then you will have to learn to roll with it and the key to that is a proper psychological and analytical perspective. Commuting matters, but its probably not the apex factor you're making it out to be right now.

As for income, that is usually not leveraged nearly as much if the perfect schedule and fewest commutes are your top priorities. That doesn't mean you have to commute every couple days to make big money. But you will have to back off that approach to it a bit. For years one of the highest paid pilots at the company was a senior FO in a junior NYC category and he commuted. He did pretty much a "normal schedule" by all metrics too, albeit it with some behind the scenes setup effort on his part (bidding and working different angles). Likewise, Captain in anything is great income but you will almost always have to sacrifice some QOL to ride the seat.

There's nothing wrong with being "fat dumb and happy" in the right seat of a WB just doing the minimum with a set in stone schedule and few commutes. But you will leave millions on the table to do that. The good thing is there are lots of options to play in 17 years. You'll figure out what's best for you. It sounds like you prefer to establish QOL first and worry about income later though.

765 will probably not be on the large majority of new hire drops IMO. The 73 will be and the ER will likely be. The 73 is probably has more similar glass but the ER is I believe a short course transition to the 765 so that's something to consider.

Not necessarily. It all depends on your relative seniority in a BES (base, equipment and seat) over a given timeline. Pre-Optimizer (mid-2018 and earlier) FL-NYC was usually by far the best commute because there are so many options and NYC yielded far faster relative seniority aka "bidding power" and the trips weren't bad once you got a little seniority. ATL is on average much more senior and has many more locals who drive around the airport all day in their uniform with bags packed to be ready for anything at a moment's notice. (I'm exaggerating a little bit. But not that much).

In any case the "right answer" for base for FL pilots isn't always ATL. You will have to do some gumshoeing legwork on your end (using your entire network of friends and connections etc) to get a current feel for any given fleet and base. Pre 2018 I would have said avoid ATL but now its more viable. But also look at the other bases, especially since you mentioned other criteria.

As I'm sure you know, many of your criteria clash. 10-12 days gone is a tough prime directive to fill until you get quite BES senior. Its dang near impossible with income and CA pay being a close second.

You probably will get CA in 5-6 years if you still want it by then. But IMO in no way will you only have 10-12 days of work and 1-2 commutes a month in anywhere near that timeframe.

But I predict you'll settle into the commuting groove more than you think you will right now. If that happens, future AE's will be your oyster. If your current 30,000ft view doesn't end up changing, then you will have to leave a lot of money (and I mean a LOT of money) on the table to write the schedule of your dreams.

So short answer if I had to pick based on the info provided would be 765 (if available, which it likely won't be) then ER then 73. NYC isn't a worse commute than ATL as the difference in the distances are functionally irrelevant. The trips, relative seniority and pad situation (and transportation considerations as appropriate) are factors you have to accept that you will have to accept. Pads and cabs (etc) are a fact of life in NYC. For your stated objectives, pads are also a fact of life in ATL as are cabs/ubers or even an "airport car".

Good luck regardless!

FangsF15

FWIW, I believe there were 2 NY 765 slots left available off the last AE, and they have both gone out. I would scratch that off the available list.

MCO is probably just as easy a commute as ATL, in part because there are 2 (really 3) options to get there. NY 7ER would be a pretty sweet deal for you, not even including the possibility of MCO Layovers.

Gos luck.