LOA 20-04 MEC approves counter
10-28-2020, 08:06 PM
#92
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 26
Thanks for the advice gang. I was somewhat joking but being retired is way overrated. I’ve developed some (new) good habits and pursing more hobbies but it’s not the same as working a regular line. I’m sure it will settle with time but I’ll be happy to help throw stones at the company from afar and hope everyone doesn’t get suckered into some BS deal that hurts the group. Ive seen some shady crap in my day that’s always hidden under the auspices of “one for all, all for one”. Watching this new round unfold seems eerily familiar despite the unprecedented times. Stay strong, don’t let them run roughshod over you. Cheers...
All you need are some tasty waves and a cool buzz.
10-28-2020, 08:19 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,832
you haven’t seen the agreement, or even rumors of its details, but it’s a turd? That seems logical to you?
10-28-2020, 09:05 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: A320 Left seat
Posts: 2,594
Well at the very least there are guys on property who were furloughed from NW or DL. I can understand their angst giving up pay now to save furloughs when that was not done for them.
Just speaking for myself, but I felt something should have been done for them back when contract 2020 was supposed to be negotiated. I feel that doubly so now if a "furlough save" is potentially in the works.
But Im just a worker bee.
Just speaking for myself, but I felt something should have been done for them back when contract 2020 was supposed to be negotiated. I feel that doubly so now if a "furlough save" is potentially in the works.
But Im just a worker bee.
That’s my view of who a dead zoners is, hope it helps.
And I will add: I will vote to keep you guys even though that didn’t happen in 2002. It wasn’t even discussed because I think Management knew it was going to be a while before they needed us. The fact that it’s even on the table is encouraging. I know how much the uncertainty eats you up inside. For 5 months after furlough, I knew the no furlough clause was going to get me my job back because the planes were full again when I was shown the door. (I learned the lesson between loads vs. yield pretty fast).
10-28-2020, 09:36 PM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: A320 Left seat
Posts: 2,594
I can't speak for PNWA but my perspective fm the RD side. Considering its not defined in the PWA, it is subject to interpretation. I would have to think there are still quite a few "deadzoners." I identify as one. Albeit, I consider myself on the luckier end of that definition or even pilots in general.
Bob's definition is built around retirement plan termination in '06. I was 45, right at the halfway point of my projected career. Per this definition, anyone who got out with their lump sum prior to termination was considered "lucky." In hindsight, I think quite a few of them would have a bone to pick with that description.
Regardless, a bunch of young guys got an immediate upgrade to Capt, many became widebody Capt in their 40s. Almost immediately, Age 60 became 65. To me they were not deadzoners. They may have lost their retirement, but the immediate upgrade in status was a balancing factor. I say that because prior, FAE ruled. Post termination, your retirement depends on what you are making today. They made bank for a good number of years, some still are.
The true "deadzoners" were the 40ish+ year olds who were not on their second career and were not able to upgrade before the Age 60 music stopped and everything stagnated for another 5 years. A lot of those guys were furloughed at one time or another and for various lengths of time.
What is the cutoff for the deadzone era? Certainly anyone hired post bankruptcy, that lost no retirement and has been collecting a decent DC since DOH.
"Bonus years?" Maybe, if being forced to work five more years for what others got without the effort and you can actually hold your medical as one ages is what you call a bonus. But to be clear, being stagnated for five years as an F/O is not the same as stagnating as a Capt. "Profit sharing?" You will find no bigger fan than me, but we received 9 profit sharing checks since '06 by my count, with no more in sight. Every one was much appreciated, but hardly a replacement for furlough and a lost retirement. I'll leave the "Note" and the "Matrix" for others to argue.
So to answer [kinda sorta] your question, my answer would be age appropriate pilots hired between '91 & '01 with a full [Age 60 adjusted] 20-30 career expectation. I'm not going to try to parse the actual demographics but that is a pool of around 4k pilots.
When you ease back a little and try to look at the big picture, my family is healthy and I don't have to share the cat's food yet. I'm pretty lucky.
Bob's definition is built around retirement plan termination in '06. I was 45, right at the halfway point of my projected career. Per this definition, anyone who got out with their lump sum prior to termination was considered "lucky." In hindsight, I think quite a few of them would have a bone to pick with that description.
Regardless, a bunch of young guys got an immediate upgrade to Capt, many became widebody Capt in their 40s. Almost immediately, Age 60 became 65. To me they were not deadzoners. They may have lost their retirement, but the immediate upgrade in status was a balancing factor. I say that because prior, FAE ruled. Post termination, your retirement depends on what you are making today. They made bank for a good number of years, some still are.
The true "deadzoners" were the 40ish+ year olds who were not on their second career and were not able to upgrade before the Age 60 music stopped and everything stagnated for another 5 years. A lot of those guys were furloughed at one time or another and for various lengths of time.
What is the cutoff for the deadzone era? Certainly anyone hired post bankruptcy, that lost no retirement and has been collecting a decent DC since DOH.
"Bonus years?" Maybe, if being forced to work five more years for what others got without the effort and you can actually hold your medical as one ages is what you call a bonus. But to be clear, being stagnated for five years as an F/O is not the same as stagnating as a Capt. "Profit sharing?" You will find no bigger fan than me, but we received 9 profit sharing checks since '06 by my count, with no more in sight. Every one was much appreciated, but hardly a replacement for furlough and a lost retirement. I'll leave the "Note" and the "Matrix" for others to argue.
So to answer [kinda sorta] your question, my answer would be age appropriate pilots hired between '91 & '01 with a full [Age 60 adjusted] 20-30 career expectation. I'm not going to try to parse the actual demographics but that is a pool of around 4k pilots.
When you ease back a little and try to look at the big picture, my family is healthy and I don't have to share the cat's food yet. I'm pretty lucky.
10-29-2020, 02:52 AM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,558
10-29-2020, 03:40 AM
#97
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 8
Great post man, and awesome skulls up about company skullduggery.
If you've got a CFI, try volunteer with the CAP (Civil Air Patrol). Its fun. Gets you out and about and you get to provide a service to the community at large (search and Rescue). I also am part of the local USCG Auxiliary. So that provides some free water time too.
There is so much more to "working". I've found this to be a release. I'm thoroughly digging the "retired" experience.
If you've got a CFI, try volunteer with the CAP (Civil Air Patrol). Its fun. Gets you out and about and you get to provide a service to the community at large (search and Rescue). I also am part of the local USCG Auxiliary. So that provides some free water time too.
There is so much more to "working". I've found this to be a release. I'm thoroughly digging the "retired" experience.
I did build a screaming fast PC and after trying a few games was immediately drawn to COD as some of you recommended. Funny how many of us are drawn to it, is it a pilot thingy? It’s tons of fun except dealing with the lightening fingered 18 year old who blows me away. I’ll get better and hopefully blow away some of these young’ ins before too long.
On a more serious note...there are several factors that might define you as a dead zoner but it’s not a set criteria. If you’re a dead zoner or not you need to be very aware of what contract terms are being presented and even more aware of the fine print. I don’t have enough fingers and toes to count the times my rep or the kompany gave me $hit info. Reps are only as good as the info they are given or the company they keep. Not to say they are purposely misleading but many are influenced by skewed data and some just tow the kompany line.
Im not going to comment on specifics we haven’t seen but PLEASE read everything carefully and don’t get suckered into a narrative that sounds good. Discuss it with friends and those scattered through the groups and seniority levels. You might be surprised by the differing opinions. In my experience the better it sounds up front the more suspicious you should be. Doesn’t mean it’s all bad but always consider the kompany plan is profit and shareholder value, not pilots. It’s their job.
I wish all my former colleagues the best but there is chop ahead like nothing we’ve seen before. Cheers and good luck to all.
10-29-2020, 04:25 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MadDog gear slinger
Posts: 568
10-29-2020, 04:37 AM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,768
Making out with management doesn't make you a happy person.
10-29-2020, 05:38 AM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,258
My question is, why do you want management to come schmooze you,? Seriously. The few road shows I've been to had a out 15 people...and they even gave a free lunch....IOW...seems most weren't interested or couldn't be bothered. Would you believe anything they said anyway?
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