AirbusPTC

[QUOTE=JamesBond;2949265]Agreed. Scope benefits you more than me. You expect me to fight for it?

Really? I'm pretty sure scope has benefited YOU way more than a 4-5 year Delta pilot. Scope is important to ALL of us. But we all have our own best interests at heart right? It's always been that way. To say it hasn't is to be disingenuous.

hockeypilot44

[QUOTE=JamesBond;2949265]Agreed. Scope benefits you more than me. You expect me to fight for it?


I don't care what you fight for. There is no unity. Our current union leadership managed to kill that with our outrageous minority supported minimum balance retirement proposal. We already lost. We're going to be stuck in holding until a recession. At least United and American are headed there with us so the company can still tout "industry leading." Not sure how that helps us other than feeling good.

Gen6

Can we quit wasting time on what everyone thinks the other person should or shouldn’t have? We have to deal in reality.

Is there merit in expending time and money during negotiation on a Minimum Balance? Would we be having this discussion had the DB not gone away in lieu of the DC? In order to answer that question DALPA needs to show what the loss to the DB guys was under the actual contracts that were in play (not what woulda, coulda, shoulda happened). Had the the DB not gone away what would be it’s value for a DZ’r today under the pay rates that existed in our actual contracts vs what they have which should include PBGC, BK claim payout, merger money and DC invested at a conservative rate of return (say 5%) over the same period. If the DB # is significantly bigger than what happened then maybe there is merit.

Please stop throwing out subjective examples to support your position for or against. Having to deal with inflation affects everyone. Saying a young guy has time may be valid using the last 10 years but what if that guy gets a 2000 to 2010 decade at the end of his career? Throwing out examples like how much housing is compared to years ago or a Cadillac in 1974 serves no purpose. The median sized house in 1974 was about 1500 ft and today it is 2700ft. The mortgage rate in 74 was 9.0% and today around 3.0%. So yes home prices went way up but the cost of money dropped tremendously. A car today compared to 1974 has roughly doubled but so has the amount of equipment and performance of that same car.

Everyone lost a decade. Try to be objective which means we need our union to provide objective, actionable data and not give us an agenda or clearly loaded questions on phone polling that steers responses to provide wildly large majorities on issues that weren’t explained or discussed in the context of the whole contract.

Denny Crane

Unity is definitely the key to a successful negotiations.

I'd sure like to see the data that says this ask is "minority supported." Maybe you could post where you are getting your data from...

As far as being "stuck in holding," I refer you to my sentence number one. There are many ways to show Unity....

Denny

hockeypilot44

Asking for a lump sum on the way out isn't showing unity. This proposal killed unity and any chance we had at achieving some gains. We haven't closed a single important section of our contract and we are passed the amendable date. I'd say negotiations are going poorly.

Denny Crane

Sooooooo you are saying we should cave early and often? Because that's what it will take to get a contract quickly. It sounds to me like you are more interested in quick vs good. Look at what happened the last time a TA was reached before the amendable date...........TA-1 is what happened and look where that got us.

I would also point out that Ed made a comment months ago to the effect there wouldn't be a contract before the end of the year. It takes two to tango.

Denny

JamesBond

Bottom end scope doesn't do jack for me. We could give all the RJs the company asks for and I wouldn't miss a beat. But that would be wrong wouldn't it? So I guess it really is different that the younger demographic doesn't give a **** about something that might not benefit them directly. That's quite OK.



/sarcasm

JamesBond

lol negotiations are quite normal.

AirbusPTC

We're all talking about the 35 pages of Section 1: Scope. NOT sure where you're all of sudden coming up with the "Bottom end" scope? Like I said, you've benefited from Scope protections x10 more than the junior military guys you're calling names. From both bottom-end scope (when you were junior) and top-end scope (now that you're apparently senior). We all understand the importance of ALL 35 pages of Section 1. THAT'S WHY IT'S SECTION ONE AFTER ALL right?

MJP27

I’ll bet you wouldn’t like the to see the results if the MEC polled on the “plus up”. I would, unfortunately we won’t see them because they (and I’ll bet most people on this forum) know what the results would be.