Originally Posted by AirbusPTC

I know...wow...I'm not the first to say this, I've seen it on chitchat but someone needs to remind ChitChat guys every once in a while that well...there were IRA's and 401K programs since the early 1980's. What were they doing with all their money during the decade(s) before bankruptcy? Some might remember the push at other airlines in the late '80's to get pensions in the pilot's own name. Never happened here and it was foolish to defer income for a "promise" of a pension from a company in the most cyclical industry on the planet (ALPA was warned about this in the '80's). A pension in an industry that is littered with bankrupt airlines...really? Who's fault is it that many didn't save for retirement, the "new-hires"? I suspect many hired since Oct '96 will not share the chit-chat forums views on the minimum balance plan, so it's a non-starter. Life is about choices right?

Originally Posted by Planetrain

I disagree. Whether you agree with the negotiators or not, saying your min is less undermines their bargaining position. Anecdotes start to add up and make their way back to the company’s perception of power at the table.

Share your mins in the cockpit, definitely share them with your reps. I think it hurts us when you share them on the public web board.

Originally Posted by badflaps

I was retired 15 years when they pulled the rug. How can you forecast that? In the 60's and 70's there were no vehicles to tuck retirement money other than The Family Care Plan.

Originally Posted by AirbusPTC

Some might remember the push at other airlines in the late '80's to get pensions in the pilot's own name. Never happened here and it was foolish to defer income for a "promise" of a pension from a company in the most cyclical industry on the planet (ALPA was warned about this in the '80's).

Originally Posted by Denny Crane

Wrong. Ever hear of the MPPP? Do a little research before throwing stones.

Every Pilot on our seniority list hired back then came into an already functioning/existing DB style retirement plan. It’s not like we had a choice in the matter. Yes the DB turned out to be foolish but there was no other choice and when one WAS negotiated, it wasn’t in place long enough to make a huge difference.

Denny

Originally Posted by AirbusPTC

First of all I'm not throwing stones. I am simply pushing back on the idea posted here and on other forums that we have to negotiate for a MINIMUM BALANCE PLAN and that the new hire pilots should have to make a sacrifice for those that have gone before them.

Sacrifice? That's a bit melodramatic and if that's a "Sacrifice," throw me in that briar patch with 20/30 years to go and I'd take the chance in a heartbeat vice getting a plus-up. The ones saying we don't know what will happen as in downturn, another bankruptcy etc. are just looking for excuses. The average market gains have been 10% per year. Again, throw me in that briar patch.

Yes, I actually had the MPPP? That didn't replace the pension though did it?

The point of the MPPP was to eventually replace the DB. It was gonna take time but that was supposed to be the end result. It was a different funding source and when it matched your earned DB then all the funding would come from it vs the DB.

Of course we HAD A CHOICE, pilots had the option of saving pre and post-taxed money for retirement instead of relying on a pension. A pension that depended on an airline lasting longer than your retirement lifespan...in this violently-cyclical business...really?

So you had a choice of whether or not to participate in a DB vs some other retirement plan negotiated by ALPA? Don't think so... So you are wrong we did NOT have a choice with deferred compensation going into the DB. Just wrong.

I've saved 10% of my earnings since I was 22 for the sole purpose of funding my retirement. I came up through the civilian ranks and that 10% wasn't much money because I didn't make much...but eventually I did and with compound interest 31 years later...it's a nice nest egg.

Well good for you. I'm glad you were able to. Others did the best they could but, ya know, life can get in the way. Taking care of aging parents, disabled kids, college, mortgage, spouse who doesn't work to stay home and raise the kids........and any number of "excuses."

As an generation "Xer" I've NEVER expected to receive a dime from Social Security or a Pension because that's what we've been told from college age onward. So I chose to save...that was my choice. Many made different choices and are content to live with those choices, some are not.

Originally Posted by Denny Crane

You do know our Pension was actually overfunded just before it wasn't? The downturn in the stock market and the run on the pension fund by those taking the 50% lump pretty much destroyed it.

Well I expect to receive SS and I did expect to receive a pension. Forseeing 9-11, Bankruptcy and the loss of the pension (pretty much the only way to lose it was in BK) was not on my (or anyones) radar at the time.

I chose to save too......in the 401k Delta offered. IIRC we got a max 2% matching that initially could be invested in the options available in the 401k. A few years later those matching funds came in Delta Preferred Stock.......guess what happened to that $70+ stock.....

Yes we all make the choices we need too. Don't belittle the choice of others without knowing their circumstances.

Denny

Originally Posted by NavyFlyer

I’m a reservist that just returned from abroad flying with 32 other Delta military aviators. All are mid-30’s/early 40’s with around 4-5 years on property.

Not one of us is in favor of a TA that includes anything inequitable between all pilots on the seniority list.

Increased DC: great. Fill up my 401k with company money: excellent. Invest my additional DC into the MBCP: eh, okay. It’s a different source of income later in life that’s still “estatable.” But give some people a “plus up,” and take more money for one group at the expense of all of us: absolutely not.

No one can tell me what my financial future holds and how the market will perform. No one can tell me if I’ll have social security benefits (and what age I’ll be able to utilize them), or what our future tax liabilities are (at some point our politicians will realize we have a deficit).

This is not to say that I don’t recognize that some people took it in the shorts, or that everyone won’t have a 60% FAE guaranteed annuity. But between increased DC benefits, Profit Sharing, PBGC/Frozen pension benefits, social security and insane market performance since ‘07, most captains I fly with are going into retirement doing very well.

Life happens. And I’m preparing for my salary decrease, or reduced benefits later in my career due to causes outside of my control. I’m certainly not going to ask others to cover for me later in my life at their own expense or that of the whole.

So yes, I’d like polling done. I’d tell the guys polling that I want scope protections, increased DC, increased pay, vacation and training increases, and QOL asks before I’d EVER consider plussing up someone else’s retirement at the groups expense.

And since we are not going to get even all of those important things, we are wasting negotiators and the company’s time even bringing this minimum balance up in any negotiation session.

Oh, and another thing. Polling numbers suck among my demographic because we don’t answer cell phone calls from random numbers. And these clowns don’t have a call back number, or allow us to make an appointment to do our poll (we’ve got kids, sports activities, recitals, crap trips to fly, and all of the other stuff that the Grandpa’s willing to answer their phones have long left in their rear view mirror). How about they email me and allow me to put some time on my calendar so they can get my feedback on this issue? They’d see that it’s a waste of time to bring a min balance to MEMRAT because it’ll be a huge failure and cause a massive delay in our contract...


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Originally Posted by badflaps

A Caddy a month, what BS. In 1974 my 727A pay was $54,000. Cadillacs were waay more than $5 grand. Delta took over pilot pensions in 1972. The money basically funded the NE purchase and a whole slew of '72's. There was an excellent chance had that not happened, DAL would have gone the way of Braniff, and the horse blanket would be a distant memory and you would be working at EAL. While IRAs and 401's were around in the late 70's, they were not approved by the IRS till later for airlines.