That certainly seems logical, unfortunately it is not codified(as far as I know). I think it should be. What happens if we go way past the amendable date and there is no retro due to "optics"....and it is just rolled into increased pay rates going forward...hmmm...so many variables to think about. With a large group of upcoming retirements on the horizon, it results in a voting block that could certainly sway any election ...even TA1 , if they thought they were gonna get "screwed". That is a scary thought but not too far out there.

You name the system, someone is going to figure out how to game it.

I don't blame them either, but let's be honest, it's not really about the "abusers," but an overall productivity grab. What % are the "abusers" overall...maybe 1-3%? So keep a handful of guys from using all their sick time or institute a policy that maybe makes 14,500 pilots use 25 hours fewer sick hours/yr...which one nets more productivity?

Wrt stealing... I'd agree to that if sick leave weren't a negotiated benefit and was something that the company just gave us. I have yet to need to verify as I have pretty low sick leave usage, but verification is pretty dumb. Even more dumb when you're in a category where one sick call can use 48+ sick hours.

So you can wrap yourself in the, verification is for "abusers," blanket all you want...but we all know it's about productivity.

Since you’re the one with the critical thinking skills we all lack: If not abuse, what explains the may spike?

As far as sick leave “abuse” goes. Here’s my thoughts. Yes the company had a slide showing a spike in sick leave. The question is: was there any further investigation into why this spike occurred/occurs or was it just assumed to be abuse? As 80 said, if I was to have an elective procedure done, I might just wait until April or May to have it done. I’m not naive enough to think there is no abuse going on but I suspect it is less than the Company thinks. We are all college educated pilots with critical thinking skills. I would guess 99% of us know how it looks if we call in sick in May and would avoid being “that guy.”

As far as the retro thing if one retires after the amendable date, if a pilot was denied retro after between the amendable date and his retirement, I would think s/he has pretty good grounds for a lawsuit. Now if it’s called a “signing bonus” or some other BS then it gets more murky.

Denny

Denny Crane! :cool:

A data point. Flew with a CA during build up to TA2. He was proud of the fact that he would swap trips to ensure he used every minute of his 270 hours of sick time before it expired. If you think there aren’t guys out there intentionally ‘sticking it to the man’ then you are either naive or stupid.

I don’t care what the history is...the notion that we can’t pre-verify for stuff like having your broken leg screwed back together or your chop-sawed-off thumb re-attached is asinine!

Agreed. The pendulum swung too far on the last round. I’m fine with verifying beyond a certain threshold (have only exceeded 100 hours one year, with a broken foot)...but we need more common sense in the list of what’s “verifiable” and what isn’t.

When somebody breaks a “non-approved” bone and then is stuck verifying every sniffle for the next year, that doesn’t pass the common sense test.

I haven’t seen anyone denying the existence of abusers.

There were plenty making this claim during TA1. Reference the FB pages and/or chit chat.

We don't know because its never been fully looked into. That's the version of the lazy/unethical prosecutor who makes a huge part of his case dependant on the defendant diddling his side chick ergo he must be the killer. Like many said, it would make massive sense to look at elective procedures (and we're not talking about calf implants but things that do need to be done but the person has some flexibility as to when).

Also when are ALL the cold and flu seasons? In many places May is a shoulder month of wild climate swings and allergens. How much was the spike in question anyway? Is that mean or median? How many pilots were spiking the spike? And its intellectually insufficient to discuss the "May spike abuse" theory without also quantifying total block hours of pilots flying sick, especially those flying sick who run up against verification thresholds where, because its only a little sick issue, its easier just to press on and git er dun this one time. Does anyone think that number is zero? It exists, so to what extent? They don't know because they don't want to know.

Its incumbent on us to self verify by law and that includes ailments that may not be verifiable by any third party ever. It also includes many ailments that almost any other employee could legally and ethically carry into work, with or without medication (script or OTC) that would ground us in addition to the underlying condition.

In any case they are likely to want concessions on not only sick but also Scope and work rules in one form or another. It just doesn't seem likely we will bite off on any of that for a slightly quicker X/3/3 Section 3 bump unless X is truly eye watering, which it won't be.

Since I'm not familiar, I will only hazard a guess. If I live in a state that doesn't have a family leave act/sick leave laws and also has no state income tax, but I fly out of say LAX....how does this work? I get the family leave act/sick leave laws cause I "work" in California, but I pay no state income tax cause I live in a tax free state(that has no "family leave")....and I'm supposed to be pizzed that Delta pressed to test? Somehow the company has "wronged me" or treated me unprofessionally because they used the court system for clarification?

BTW....(if my supposition is correct), I would really hate for California to use that as an arrow in their quiver on how I am now subject to their 13% state income tax

If I'm misunderstanding your position, apologies...maybe you could clarify. I like to feel slighted and under-appreciated as much as the next guy

Delta is an international company. Our work is performed everywhere. Right now your work home is your crew base regardless of your residence. GA has the largest crew base by far and the largest total number of employees. Yeah, I expect them to fight this. And yeah, I expect them to eventually lose but call it a great enhancement to employee benefits that THEY have fully instituted. Five seconds before it becomes law.

For NYC based pilots we pay into the state sick program even if we don’t live in NY state. This does not obligate one to pay NY state income taxes.

I don't look at my pay stub, but do you get this reimbursed to you somewhere on your pay stub. Something about what I'm saying rings a bell but I don't have time to look it up

Deuces

Yes, we pay about $80 a yr to NY for that “benefit”.

So this different than SDI tax....which is what I was thinking of ....SDI was deducted then credited back.

What do they call it?

What is the $ value of all the unused sick time vs. the $ value of all the "abusers" sick time usage?

It's not reimbursed, it's automatically deducted from your paycheck.

I personally feel this is BS. I'm getting taxed from a state where I have no representation. I can't call a Senator or Rep to voice any issues I might have about this program....they give zero sh!ts becuase I'm not a constituent and can't vote for them.

It's really bad how they go after professional athletes. They get drilled by most of the cities and states that they play road games in. In a smaller scale but much more prevalent way is how tourists are taxed by local municipalities, especially in hotel/hospitality taxes.

They go after pilots also if they can show you did 51% of your work in their state. GA almost cleaned out the training department once when they went after sim instructors.

What if you were rerouted and shorted thousands in pay because the system isn’t automated.

Is management stealing or incompetent?

Or stealing and incompetent?

How many millions did Captain Kessler catch every year for our pilots who were shorted on reroute pay?

How many were missed?

Frankly, reading page after page about honesty and abusers, what is legitimate or not, sick notes, company productivity and the like... this all underscores the problems with "sick time".

Contrast this with with Paid Time Off (PTO). Nobody cares if you're sick, your kids in the hospital, wife is delivering your baby, your thumb is severed in half, you feel like sleeping in, watching a game, go on a vacation, don't go on a vacation, etc. No premise on what you need to do or be for paid time off, so no aspect of dishonesty. Do WTF you want on a paid day off. No time left? Either Chief can do unpaid PD, or allow us to leverage the bank easier/loan agaisnt ourselves. The only abusers in this system are those who hoard hours and go to work contagious. Let company culture police this garbage.

Sailing et al don't want to reduce our available (did he call it spectacular?) and plentiful amount of sick leave. Perhaps we need to improve short term disability so we aren't trying to use or preserve sick leave for what is really a short term disabled contingency on the high end of annual sick leave use. I'd trade some top end sick leave for PTO myself...or 6-9 days of paid APD.

Ditto!!!!!

Either way its ridiculous and radically unfair that some bases get vastly superior access to a collectively negotiated benefit than other bases. The taxes some pay have absolutely nothing to do with this. We all negotiate (and equally pay for) sick time benefits etc. and only some bases get to use it in a vastly superior way than others. That needs to end.

100% of all RR's need to be fully and completely audited and grivences filed when pay shorts are discovered. That's the same as the age old insurance scam of "deny deny deny" then eventually pay.

I agree, that’s why I said it will eventually become a company wide benefit. For those who are advantaged now by there state sick opportunity, you are usually paying more in state taxes. Not an excuse but a factor FWIW.

Their state taxes don't go towards funding DALPA negotiated sick benefits though. It has nothing to do with that. We're not talking the NY tax and its associated benefit. If a state wants to tax in order to provide a state funded benefit then fine. But we all pay equally every contract to fund/pay for/cost out our sick benefits equally, then some bases get to use it differently. That's unacceptable.

Hope you're right about a future policy change but I'll believe it when I see it.

Yes, it’s not fair. After the policy is instituted I’ll still be paying the higher taxes of my “progressive” state and others will not. I’m just saying we are doing the heavy lifting now.

I kinda think the same way about commuter parking. Folks on here said "Go pound sand" commuting is a choice...."I could live in base if I wanted to". So does the same logic apply here....If you want that sick leave "benefit", choose to be based out of a domicile that gives you that benefit? (For those that are sarcastic humor impaired "I keed , I keed")

Stoopid argument by them the first time , and just as equally stupid here

The sick time benefits should apply equally and commuter parking as well(in the form of a stipend)

Yeah cause the cost of parking (which was also paid for in the contract and applies equally to any pilot who wants to use it) is the same as potentially thousand of hours of sick time over the years of an equally negotiated pilot benefit we all pay for the same every contract. That's apples vs pictures of apples.

Washington state has state sick leave AND zero state income taxes. Just sayin'

Oh!!!! And now $30 car tabs!!

Denny

Can you actually use it? When I tried to use NYs one that I pay for I was told that because my company has a disability plan that pays me I am not eligible for NYs state plan.

How do they do it? I keep hearing that the left coast in general and the Seattle area in particular is an expensive place to live. I admittedly don’t have a clue that’s why I ask. Point is moot for me, ain’t happening. I do wonder how you know which city you are landing in on the SEA-LHR trips (well former trips now) because they look identical at 1000 feet. :D I kid, but I do think of the GNR song November Rain every time I layover in either city. Now I’m getting depressed just thinking about. Oh, how I love breaking out above the clouds in the morning after those layovers. :D

Now I'm even more ****ed off about the NY FMLA!!!

I think he means Georgia. They have Kin Care but Delta has said pilots can’t use it. I live in Georgia and pay taxes in Georgia, I should be able to use Kin Care. I am very surprised the state allows Delta to get away with this.